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Working Mums with Mandy Garner

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Why should we be supporting mothers in the workplace and how can we do it? Allegra talks to Mandy Garner, Editor of Working Mums, Working Dads and Working Wise, about the benefits of creating an environment that works for parents, and the technological solutions available to organisations, as well as best practice approaches. 

  • How have attitudes changed to working parents?
  • What impact has the pandemic had on how employers approach flexible working?
  • Isn't hiring mums just doing them a favour? (Erm, no...)
  • What are some innovative ways to offer flexible access to existing and prospective employees?

Tune in to find out!

For more information on Working Mums, visit workingmums.co.uk 

For the dads, visit workingdads.co.uk and for the over 50s it's workingwise.co.uk 

Hello and welcome to reimagination at workpodcast. I'm your host. I'm a La Chapman. I am one ofthe CO creators of watch this space. We are a university and inclusion consultancyand as part of this podcast and our work in the wider community, weare on a missigment to help businesses reimagine and wethink everything that they do inorder to create more diverse and increase of working practices and working ronments working landscapefor everybody. I am really, really excited to be joined by Mandy Ghana, who is the editor of working mums man defects. So much for joiningme today. Pleasure. And so tell us a little bit about working mumsand what you do. Okay, great, thanks very much for inviting me.So working moms were started a long time ago now, to what seemsa long time, two thousand and six, and it was set up by JillianNisson and it was set up around our kitchen table. Basically, shehad had this issue around. You know, how do you find flexible new jobs? It's a not ongoing issue, but at the time it was really, really difficult, and so she contacted organizations who she thought were kind ofsort of friendly towards a flexible working and and it sort of went from there. It started as a job's board. It's still a job's board for theflexible new roles, whatever that flexibility means. And I came on board in twothousand and seven to do all the editorial sort of side of things,and that includes advice support. We have a kind of panel of employment lawexperts and other expert coaches and stuff like that who answer people's questions and thenI do lots of interviews with people, interviews with Mum's interviews with employers orevery sort of aspect of news that touches on working parents basically, and diversekin inclusion. And then, yeah, we also have an awards ceremony.So once a year we have our top employer awards ceremony which highlights best practiceand that's been really, really successful and it's been going for over ten yearsnow and with them this year we're doing it. We normally do it inNovember and we're doing it in genuary this year and we're doing obviously online likeeverything, and we're just sort of celebrating the best practice around Covid for youknow, we've sort of reading. The awards got big focus on mental health, for example, and and we also, on the back of that, wewrite I write a best practice report, so I write up interviews with allof the winners and the aim is basically to share whatever what they're doingand give people ideas and stimulate conversations. And off the back of that aswell, we've now got a series of what used to be kind of roundtables where employers came together to discuss sort of various different themes, but arenow obviously online. So we've got virtual round tables and they've all been covidfocused in the last few months. So yeah, we've just and we justdid we just had a round table, a kind of really interesting one onempathy in the workplace. So yeah, that's and yeah, so then fromworking mums, we have set up working dad's. Obviously, gender equality athome and at work is really crucial and there's a big link between the two. So we have chains who hands are working dad's site and we've just startedin the last year working wise, which is for people who are over fifty. So we aiming to do the whole work life cycle at some point.And it was it was it was quite...

...an able at because we were doinga lot of obviously I'm working mums, about returners, menopause and those kindof carer issues as well. So it just made sense to go and Ithink as we've all got older as well, we was in that next days oflife. But working wise is the month, that not month working waissthe for men and women. So it's for everyone. I A thing.So you're very busy with lots going on. Yes, it's been incredibly busy inthe last, you know, a few months. We in from March, basically when we went into lockdown. You know that some of the staff, quite a lot the stuff, were furloughed, but on the editorial sideit was really we had like big spikes of obviously people coming and asking forinformation, because everybody was desperate for information about childcare particular, and the informationthat there was wasn't not very clear. So it was all of quite caseof sort of trying to look at the guidance and actually, you know,look at every single word in the guidance. Basically what you could you know.What did does it actually mean? Yeah, because you know, Imean you must just I mean, I know, I know, just frommy experience and from from talking to other mums, the child has situated inlockdown was just a nightmare and it made it so difficult for a lot ofmums to work at all and certainly to work effectively. So you must haveseen it. Quite a lot of people really struggling with with that issue,really struggling. We had so we had partners, we had parents of andand mum's coming on to the site asking question. So the mums you knowwho, particularly mums of very young children, which must have been absolutely, really, really difficult, my children a little bit older and also in amunths, with kids with special needs, kids with underlying health conditions, parentswith underlying health conditions, all of those kind of things. Single parents,single parents who are working on the front line, may be working shifts wherethere was no childcare available, sort of night shifts and stuff like that.That was, you know, that the some of the cases. It just, you know, you were just like you just wanted to help and givesome information, but the information was not you know, there was information available. Have you seen employers being willing to help with them, to try andsort of thought that situation out, or if it has, they've been abit more of just out you know, that's your problem. Yeah, Ithink it varies very, very much. I think there's a huge I meanthere's always been a huge divide between good practice and and they're not so goodpractice, and I think that's probably become a bit of a cavern over thelast few months. And Yeah, I so good. There is very goodpractice out there and the people that come on our round tables are, youknow, doing amazing things often and there's been a lot of kind of likeyou know, reducing of expectations, a lot of flexibility that they you know, they understand that somebody might have to work early in the morning and thenlate in the evenings and that in the middle time of the day is nota good time, or whatever it might be. And there's also understanding thatworking very early in the morning and very late at night it's not, youknow, a sustainable thing for a very long period of time. You're justexhausted, particular if you got children that wake up during the night as well. So there is understanding about that and I know some employers are sort ofjust, you know, just reduce St expectations and just and then other peoplein the team of sort of coming and, you know, helped and that kindof thing, but it's it's trying to get to do that in away that doesn't create presentment or I think. I think there's you know, theyset up parents networks and those kind of things to give support and andand sort of particular slack channels and all of that kind of thing so peoplecan going to give each other advice and just, you know, just havea space to say that this is awful,...

...you know, just say I amexhausted, I can't do this. That's really important. And and alsohaving those parent those networks feeding then to the to hr and too, andthen maybe inter senior leadership makes everybody aware of, you know, just whatit's like. Yeah, it's okay. And have you seen, because workwith Mums and dad's and you have that but experience of both. Do yousee a really big difference in the way mums are being treated with regards tochildcare and dealing with the sort of lookdown issues versus how DADS finding it?Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's definitely our survey show, and it'sjust the same as a lot of the reserve that shows that mums have definitelycarried the you know, the weight of the birds. Enough Child Care inhomeschooling, and I think I'll say I'm just looking at me because I've gotwritten down here, but I think they showed lives. Really only sixteen percentsaid that they have been equal sharing of child care and homeschooling. Six andthat didn't you know that? It been one six. Yeah, and thatwas regardless of whether they worked at the women work full time or not.So something here. So and it's quite interesting when you kind of drill downinto the reasons that they give. And sometimes in some cases it's just thatthey, you know, their partner works longer hours or is not in therenot a rating, not in the house. I was working outside the home andall works more intensively, although you can that's an interesting question as wellto sort of pick apart. But other if but a lot of them justsaid it. It's just it's always been me. So therefore that's why Ihave done it. But I think dad's, you know, the Working Dad's sideof things shows that the dads have done more. It's just it's justthat balance of the dads have done more than they usually do, but themums have done a lot more than they usually do as well. So it'sdifference between the moon and if they were already doing a lot more and they'vedone even more than it's less. It's yeah, I feel that I'm andI mean it does depends so much on your employer as well, because Iknow you know, yeah, from our side of things, I mean myhusband's work of been fantastic. They've been phenomenally you know, if he's neededto to look after our daughter, if he's needed to take us somewhere,because you just do anything. His bosses just been like Yaps, fine.When look down started, we said, you know, from the beginning,I need to work full time, he needs to work full time. We'regoing to have to split the childcare. So we worked half a day eachand his hit. I mean I obviously I I'm self employe to I canup my angrels, but and you know, if they him, he had toget that okayed by his boss. But hit they were like yet that'sfine, you've got kids, of course you have to. You have tolook after your child. So they've been brilliant and really supportive, but it'sso depends on that employer being willing to be supportive and I imagine, youknow, when you talk to employers, do you find they that you know, that they are keen to be supportive or, as you know, isit sort of do they see it as as just to cut at you andit irritation that these these people have got these children to look after and it'sdistracting them from their job? Yeah, well, but well, the employersthat we're speaking to are ones that are, you know. So if the employersat work with us on the site, they actually get the whole flags workingthings. So we're probably not. They're not the sort of but themain, the average employee maybe, but and certainly we know from the DadSurveys that sometimes that Dad's face, if you know, quite a lot ofbarriers with flexible work, or have done in the past with flexible working,where it's just assumed that you know, why isn't your partner doing it,or what? What you know? What? Why should you be doing it?And and dad's I think one thing...

...that's definitely come through from this isthat Dad's want to do you know, they want to continue working or theywhat they they they don't want want to continue working flexibly. So that Ithink that's going to be a big sort of positive that comes from that.But we do know that there are employers who are not you know, whoare being very, very difficult. We get a lot of questions in.We're getting a lot of questions in at the moment about shift work and peopleshift patterns being changed and it obviously being really difficult around childcare and of courseemployers are in a really difficult situation so they're just trying to sort of survive. But that can be really difficult if it's just sort of laid it's justhow it's done. There's got to be a kind of consultation and some sortof recognition of some of the challenges that people face, because what are yousupposed to do if you just don't have any child care cover? Absolutely,when you when you said of when you're reading out to employees to get involvedin what you do and to be part of the jobs board and part ofthat network in in general, you know, and in the before times, beforebefore the apocalypts happened and D do you find a lot of resistance foran employees to the idea of flexible working? Is it? Is it something thata lot of people are quite open to now or yeah, feel aboutthat. I mean it's certainly changed since Jillian started the website. I thinkit was really difficult in the early days and people just didn't you know,didn't get it or didn't want to do it. Thought it was a kindof favor basically to be done to mom's only and they were kind of lesser, you know, they were not really proper workers in that's it was justaside, you know, they were they were put on that sideline. They'renot really that interested in their career kind of thing. So definitely there's beenprogress since then and I think technology has had a big role as well inthat and enabling sort of remote working and stuff like that and so but there'sstill a lot of reserve, you know. Well, certainly pre coovid there wasa lot of resistance to things like remote working and they were still verykind of additional views about or job share is still a really difficult one toin in our survey's job share, the job share percentage sort of sticks verystubbornly at certain level and it doesn't really get much further than that, whichis a shame. But yeah, there's all sorts of different forms of flexibilityand some, some employers particularly the same's the larger sames. So you getthere's a difference between their the small the kind of start up ones which tendto be quite dynamic and flexible and or offer you know, quite a lotof parents help their own kind of companies and and make them deliberately as flexibleas possible because they they've left their corporate job because it wasn't flexible. Youget all of that and there. But when the company becomes slightly bigger,then they start sort of creating their own policies, hr policies and stuff likethat, and that kind of almost makes it more cements it. It makesit more less flexible because they can't take into it at individual sort of circle. That's things like that and you get, certainly before covid you know that theMay focus was on parts. When they sort of thought about flexible working, it was mainly about part time workers and they didn't there wasn't a lotof sort of Flexi time or Flexi, you know, compressed hours or turntime working or analyze work it, all of that kind of stuff. Therewasn't an embrace of the larger kind of flexible working picture. I think that'strue. To say. Yeah, and in within organizations, and I thinka lot of organ even the best ones,...

...recognize that they have pockets of resistance. What they and pockets of resistance and it's about how do you changethe culture overall, but also tackle those pockets of resistance. And and oneof the really interesting things is one of the things that we found even beforecovid was remember talking to a law firm and what they did was they starteda remote law illegal team that work remotely, and through starting that team it waslike a pilot project. They were able to show that it works.So where people would be resistant because it was more of a theoretical idea remoteworking, like it's never going to work in our profession block, you know, all that kind of thing, when they're shown that actually works, thenit's more difficult to to counter that and covid has been a big example ofthat. And now, you know, a lot of the employers are employers. Say you look now we it's very difficult for those people who are resistingto say that it doesn't work because we've actually does. Yeah, even thoughremote working and Covid is nothing like remote working normally it's, you know,emergency working as that's the thing, isn't it? If it works in thissituation, then imagine how brilliantly it would work if, yeah, the worldwasn't ending er up. Yeah, yeah, the space that's so helpful in itif you've got those concrete examples to show. And then you demonstrated itsworks and, as you say, covid been the biggest remote working flexible workingexperiment in the world because we've had to show that with them, with everybody. So it's sermon. Yeah, it's proved to a lot of businesses.People they can do it, but actually they can. What I didn't yeah, I'm just going to say. At the same time, I think whatwe saw in September is going to you know, that higherhold back to workthing. I think it's going to be really interesting to see what happens becauseobviously all the surveys that are coming back are saying that, you know,people want to work flexibly sort of going forward. The hybrid working where youwork partly in the office and then partly at home, is the is theyou know, comes out way aheads of what people want, and that's anda lot of employers are surveying their their staff and that's been part of thewhole covid experience. They engaged more with their with their staff and have asort of better idea maybe of what they want. And you've got that.But you've got the kind of economic imperative of supporting all the commuter type,you know, the businesses that are around commuters and that kind of things,that it's going to be a lot of pressure to return to some form ofwhatever normality is. But I don't think that's what a lot of people want. Yeah, I think it's going to be very difficult because I think alot of people that you say are just going to be like well, I'vebeen working flexibly or remotely for, you know, six best part of theyear now. A lot of people aren't planning and going back into the officeanytime soon. So have I'm worked remotely this long. I think it's goingto be very difficult for employers to insist people go back in. But,as you say, there's a little pressure coming from the government and the moretraditional approaches and the economic impacts of get people back into the office. Asthat's that's going to be a challenge for employers to navigate, I think isn'tover the next year. Yes, and also that whole kind of narrative thatthere's still sort of lingers of that, you know, get back to workas if you're not working when you're working from home, which is really irritbecause I know, I don't think I've ever worked harder. We know,and I had a rant in a previous episode about the whole get back towork campaign that the government running. Because, yeah, absolutely that. We've beenwe've been working and we've been working in the most challenging circumstances and it'sbeen arect. Yes, suggestion. Everyone...

...needs to go back to work.Now it's just I got rather furious about that. Yes, rightly so.Do you had you encourage businesses done? What could you you say to people? Are the benefits of flexible working and the different types of flexible working andjob sharing and things like that? What can they you know? Why iswhy is it a good thing for employers to have that in the yeah,well, first of all, or there's, you know, being able to recruit, you know, the best, you know, whatever the talent,get the widest pool of talent possible, reached out to as many people asyou can and then to retain those people. So that's that's a huge you knowcost, I guess, or the advertising, what have you, butalso retraining and the experience that you lose if people do leave, and peoplehave been leaving and setting up as a certain either setting up their own governaniesor going somewhere else. And then there's, you know, reduced sickness levels,there's increased well being generally, there's increased engagement with the employer if theyfeel that they're actually there is a two way flexibility, because that that's abig issue as well, the two way flexibility, because we have seen flexibilityrising, but in some cases it's been flexibility that's more in the favor ofthe employer and it's given flexible working a kind of bad name, because ifit's only one way, it doesn't actually work. So yes, there's allsorts of different benefits. So, yeah, engagement with with the organization, motivation, all those, all those different sort of things I think are huge. I mean just makes makes sense, makes sense all around. Yeah,absolutely. Kind you do it, how you kind of embed it, howyou because I think some some employers who maybe haven't been used to it seeit as like this really really challenging, huge sort of headache. You know, they've got to sort of you know, think of how how different people,how different sort of members of teams are going to work together. ButI think if you do break it down on to the team level, thenthen it it's you know, it's about it's about giving support to line managersto be able to do it properly and it's it is a bit of aJigsaw sometimes with if people are doing different sort of patterns, but you know, the the benefits are huge. Yeah, definitely. So what are some ofthe best, best work approaches you seen businesses taking? She fots aboutyour awards for best practice in there and they work. You do around that? Do you must see some really innovative approaches and some some really great thingscoming out. What what are some some good examples that you can share soinspire people? I mean there's all sorts of things that so were happening beforecovid sort of on the whole kind of recruitment side of thing, like agilerecruitment, where you would so employers like laid's Bank. They had like awhole. So every job speck that comes in, so every line manager thatsays we need somebody for this particular job. You know, the the HR teamwould they had to tick why it had to be done in a certainway if it couldn't be done flexibly. They had to explain why couldn't itbe done flexibly and then they would be challenged by the HR manager. Youknow why? I can't it be done flexibly. So so, yeah,because I think, yes, there's a tendency to just fall into the well, we've always that job's always been done in this particular way, so itcan't be done any other way. So just trying to have those conversations topeople to think and and though there's sort of pressure in parliament to, youknow, have have a law on default, flexibility and all that kind of stuff, it's just how you how do you make it work on the ground, and that's where I think employers, you know, what employers are doingand how they're doing that is really interesting...

...and it is about those conversations andjust, you know, just getting that sort of going. A week wefind that when we are sort of sales team who are doing the job adverts, a lot of their job is not just, you know, just sales. It's educate. You know, it's having those conversations and saying, well, couldn't that job maybe, when you put that job back averting, couldyou just mention, you know, that it could be done in this youknow they're open to conversation about flexible working. Does it really have to be likethis? You know, why have you put you why if you putthat there and all that kind of thing. So it's just making them, askingthem, asking people questions and making them challenge what they kind of received. Thinking yeah, yeah, because you fall into those patterns, don't youhave all this is just the way it is, and you until somebody questionsyou on that, you don't think the question make yourself. So it's goodto have that problem of wait, why Ay you doing it this way?Yeah, a good thing of question of all working process. There's been somuch that's come up during covid as well in terms of best practice. We'vehad round tables on divesting inclusion, on mental well being, on on womenin the workplace, on all sorts of different issues. But you know,I the things that came out recently was department for transports have used asynchronous interviewsduring covid. So that was that was and there was quite a lot ofinterest in that in the round table. So what what they do is youcan actually record your interview at any time of the day or night. Youhave a kind of two week window to record the interview. They send youa link to a website and then you have a timed you can't re record, you have a time slot and then the questions come up on the screenand you respond to the questions. And that is something that it might not, you know, suit everybody. That might people. Some people might likethe kind of more interaction, human interaction sort of side of things, butduring covid that has been really, really useful for them and it's meant thatthey've been able to, you know, get to a cut much wider groupof people, including people with disabilities, but also that parents that have hadto homeschool and all that kind of stuff. So they are keen to sort oftake that forward and use it, you know, maybe, you know, as one of their sort of ways of running interviews in the future.Yeah, and there's been a huge focus on mental well being as well andwe've seen lots of really innovative things that employers have done. Got Really gonebeyond you know, they've really sort of looked into how they how they supportstaff with, you know, line manager train line manager training is like them, you know, line managers absolutely crucial to all this, but also supportingline managers, rewarding line managers for diversting, inclusion sort of issues and engagement andthose kind of things. So those those you know, employers are lookingat all different aspects of what they do. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, andI love that. I Day of the interviews. That such an interestingidea but, as you say, it opens up to so many different peoplewe can and act as everything easier. Brilliant. Yes, yeah, Ithink it's quite because we used to run we have a franchises section on theon the website, so we also cover self employment and freelancing and all thekind of things as well, but we used to run a franchise awards ceremonyand and I did it, used to do a report on the winners aswell, and that always made me because they were often organizations that have beenrun by women, set up by women, often parents, to give other peoplekind of you know, that that option of being able to find yourown business but have the framework that's already set. So you know that it'sbeen, you know, successful elsewhere and...

...you've got the support as well.But some of the ideas that come up in that, the way that thefranchises, the really good franchises, support the franchise's and are all working remotelybecause they're all connected via the Internet and Facebook, support groups and all thatkind of stuff. I think there's a lot that can be taken from thatby employers. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, go and I go andcheck out the working mom's website. Everything read reader for on some ofthese these initiatives are going on, because there's some, yeah, really,really exciting and into things and it is just about challenging that way of thinkingand pushing yourself to think outside the books a little bit and and do thingsdifferently. And also, on the topic of women going out and starting theirown businesses and doing things, because that's very much what happened with me.I had my little girl and left my corporate job to go and set upon my own because that made much more sense having a child and it wasreally the only option of having a child. And it's we're talking on. It'sthe twenty of November today, it's equal payday, so this is thelast day of the year that women are being paid effectively because of the genderpay gap. We're working for free for there are for the year now,which is mildly frustrating. There is obviously still a massive issue for women inthe workplace, the gender pay gap being just part of it, and we'veseen a code a lot more mum's being furloughed than Dad's, a little moreparents being furled than anybody, but and more more mum's, more women beingmade redundant using the job and there's obviously still a huge way to go untilwe've got a kind of equal playing fields, but for men and women. Anddo you have you seen much happening with the businesses that you work within terms of tackling that gender pay gap? And also, I think there's anotherissue as well, asn't there with flexible working that sometimes businesses think willokay, I can give you factual working, but then I can pay you less. You know, DODC, DODC businesses tackling that, that pay gap, or is it still something that's pressure to the back a little bit?Yeah, I think that some businesses are tackling that so those who haven't.So there's a big difference also between the employers that have been really hard hitby Covid and haven't been Ol to function properly, and that's often been businessesinsectors that are a lot of women are in hospitality, we tell and allthose kind of stuff's such a mixed picture because also women are very dominant inthe front line in the kind of health and education and all that kind ofthing. But yes, I do think that some of those employers are definitelythey're very sort of focused and they have very good so when they do theirgender pay reports, they are have kind of an action plan and they dofolk on that and they realized and they've sort of looked in detail the reasonswhy there's a gender pay that, which is often because there's not many womenin their higher ranks of organization. And sometimes the action that they take tocounter that actually worsens their gender pay gap because if they're in industries where there'sfew women and they get a lot of women in through into they've gone outand they've done a lot of outreach and stuff and bought in women on thelower in the lower ranks, the graduates of area they take a while.So then work they up to the top. But that's the beginning because they've gotmore than in the in the lower ranks. It affects their gender andif it even if one woman, if they've got, you know, hardlyany women at the top, if one woman leaves, that really sort ofskews the figures. But in general, I mean the the gender pay.You know the thing was suspended that the government suspended the gender pagert reporting thisyear and you know, we feel that's...

...a really sort of certain, reallynegative message to people and let's see what happens next year and it will bereally important to watch what the figures are because, as you say, I'vebeen talking a lot about good practice in the best practice here and we knowthat there's you know, there's a there's a huge issue with women dropping outof the work and I know this has been reported around that, you know, the US and stuff as well, with big McKenzie report came out inSeptember, I think, Mackenzie and leaning, and they were talking about this massivesort of drop out of women from the workforce and that whole lack ofrecognition within the sort of this sort of structures the pay structures and the andthe promotion structures of what women have had to deal with in the last fewmonths, and it generally has been women. So, for example, you know, when figures come out on product there was, I think there wasa put out the other day on productivity and it showed, you know,women were less productive or what why? You know, if you're looking atyou know, women, maybe not, maybe won't put themselves forward for apromotion if they've absolutely exhausted after having to us keep going over the last fewmonths. Do you do your you know, the the processes that you have forfor the deciding bonuses and and all that kind of thing? Do theytake into account what has been happening in the last few months? You know, it's not enough to, you know, just provide support. You've got toactually look at the structures that you have so that you know, toknow what the impact is going to be on pay in going and under careeraggression for women. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's such an important pointactually to think about. Do you do you see it changing? Do you, because we're you know, we've been talking a lot and watch the spaceabout the future of work and what the future is going to look like now, if covid has reset things and all given businesses and opportunity to rethink whatthey do, where we're kind of go from head? Do you see thatthat approach to the women and some mother's do you see that changing? Doyou see the you know, things getting better anytime soon? You are youoptimistic about the future? I didn't even yeah, I I'm not a sortof like it's going to be great, look, this is a great opportunitykind of person. I know that there's a lot of that kind of goingon and sometimes that kind of very positive spin. It's like, well,because we getting in a lot of questions from people who are being made redundantand and we know from, you know, previous recessions and stuff, you knowthat it's very difficult to get back into work the longer that you're outof work, that they you know there was a big spike in self employmentafter the last recession, that a lot of the people who are in selfemployment are not really able to make a proper living way to they and they'vebeen really hit self employed by COVID did. So there's there's there's optimistic things andthere's there's some mystic things. So on the optimistic front, on theflexible working side of things, I do think that this hybrid working particularly andand remote working generally are going to be more of a thing in the future. I'm I my I'm sort of really interesting flexible working really and I thinkthat in the last few months it's just been seen as remote working. Andit's quite interesting that the NS figures show that part time working has been particularlyhit by Covid so. And yet there's quite a lot of campaigning, forsure, you know, four day week and short term working and that kindof thing, so that the pain is...

...spread a little bit more. Solet's see what happens. I'm not sure what's going to happen with that,but definitely I think a lot of employers will go forward with hybrid working.They've seen that they can make it work. They can save money, which willbe a big fut of issue. I'm very interested in this whole youknow the Deutsche Bank report that came out about axing remote workers and interested tosee whether that there's going to be more on that and paying people were remotelyless, and if those people who work remotely tend to be women and there'smore. There's still this kind of C loss put on people who work inthe office. You know, there's a kind of hierarchy. Then that quitebut hopefully, hopefully, the dad's wills, things stick in there and I'm sonormalize it more and then on the on the net, on the morenegative side, I guess I shouldn't really end on the negative side. Tothe whole, the whole labor market has flipped. So as we were comingup to covid there was a huge and this still is. There's a lotof skills shortages in a lot of areas and we've got brexit. So andthat will have an impact on job losses but also skills shortages in different areas. So there's a as a big retraining agenda in there. But yes,as I said before covid they employers needed to get out to a more diverseyou know, they needed to get more people in, they needed to widenthe talent pool, and now they've got the opposite where they're going to havea lot of people looking for jobs, and so we need to keep aneye on on that and make sure that they still diversty in inclusion is stillreally an all forms of diverse inclusion, which are often interrelated, are kepton the agenda. Definitely, I space. That's the thing, isn't it?It's what's happening at the moment does present an opportunity, but it's verymuch about how businesses respond to that and how they how they choose to takethem which direction they used to go in. So so to end on a positivenote, what would you what would you like to see in the future? How to have, you think, businesses kids response in a positive wayto make things better and create a better future for parents and women and everybodyin general. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm hoping that more businessare will. Certainly, you know, the ones that we are speaking toare more in touch with what their employees want, that this has been abig exercise on the mental health side, that that there's that there's much morerecognition of wellbeing issues and and of line managers have had to be more intouch with everybody. So a lot of employers have, you know, theline managers has been sort in regular contact by a zoom and stuff like that. They've seen inside people's homes basically, you know, they've seen what what'sgoing on people all the other issues and things, maybe that people in withinteams know each other a little bit more and there's more of a recognition ofall those things and that there's great a greater sense of engagement there and thatthat will feed through into sort of more recognition of why it makes business senseto, you know, to understand your employees more and and and what motivatesthem, because in the long term this is all going to be, youknow, knowing that what works best getting the best talent, you know,the broadest boardest. So in the broadest sense, having diverse teams that reflectyour customers or clients or whatever it is, is going to be good for businessas well as for employees. Absolutely sed it faster myself. That's yeah, absolutely brilliantly to end. God,...

Mandy, thank you so much fortalking to me today. I really appreciate it. That was incredibly interesting andthere's some really useful things for everybody to go away and think about. Andwhere can they find more information? Where could, where should they go tofind more about working mums and all of the resources and amazing stuff that you'veproduced right well, it's working mums dot co dot UK. And then forthe DADS working dad's DOT CO DOT UK and for the over s working wisecodot UK, brilliant. I cannot encourage everyone enough to go and check thatout because there's some incredible work for you're doing a brilliant things that you're producing, so everybody should go and look at that. And thank you, Mandy. It's a brilliant talking to you. Thank you everybody for listening and wewill see you again on the next episode. Every imagination at work. Very Much.

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