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Working Mums with Mandy Garner

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Why should we be supporting mothers in the workplace and how can we do it? Allegra talks to Mandy Garner, Editor of Working Mums, Working Dads and Working Wise, about the benefits of creating an environment that works for parents, and the technological solutions available to organisations, as well as best practice approaches. 

  • How have attitudes changed to working parents?
  • What impact has the pandemic had on how employers approach flexible working?
  • Isn't hiring mums just doing them a favour? (Erm, no...)
  • What are some innovative ways to offer flexible access to existing and prospective employees?

Tune in to find out!

For more information on Working Mums, visit workingmums.co.uk 

For the dads, visit workingdads.co.uk and for the over 50s it's workingwise.co.uk 

Hello and welcome to reimagination at work podcast. I'm your host. I'm a La Chapman. I am one of the CO creators of watch this space. We are a university and inclusion consultancy and as part of this podcast and our work in the wider community, we are on a missigment to help businesses reimagine and wethink everything that they do in order to create more diverse and increase of working practices and working ronments working landscape for everybody. I am really, really excited to be joined by Mandy Ghana, who is the editor of working mums man defects. So much for joining me today. Pleasure. And so tell us a little bit about working mums and what you do. Okay, great, thanks very much for inviting me. So working moms were started a long time ago now, to what seems a long time, two thousand and six, and it was set up by Jillian Nisson and it was set up around our kitchen table. Basically, she had had this issue around. You know, how do you find flexible new jobs? It's a not ongoing issue, but at the time it was really, really difficult, and so she contacted organizations who she thought were kind of sort of friendly towards a flexible working and and it sort of went from there. It started as a job's board. It's still a job's board for the flexible new roles, whatever that flexibility means. And I came on board in two thousand and seven to do all the editorial sort of side of things, and that includes advice support. We have a kind of panel of employment law experts and other expert coaches and stuff like that who answer people's questions and then I do lots of interviews with people, interviews with Mum's interviews with employers or every sort of aspect of news that touches on working parents basically, and diverse kin inclusion. And then, yeah, we also have an awards ceremony. So once a year we have our top employer awards ceremony which highlights best practice and that's been really, really successful and it's been going for over ten years now and with them this year we're doing it. We normally do it in November and we're doing it in genuary this year and we're doing obviously online like everything, and we're just sort of celebrating the best practice around Covid for you know, we've sort of reading. The awards got big focus on mental health, for example, and and we also, on the back of that, we write I write a best practice report, so I write up interviews with all of the winners and the aim is basically to share whatever what they're doing and give people ideas and stimulate conversations. And off the back of that as well, we've now got a series of what used to be kind of round tables where employers came together to discuss sort of various different themes, but are now obviously online. So we've got virtual round tables and they've all been covid focused in the last few months. So yeah, we've just and we just did we just had a round table, a kind of really interesting one on empathy in the workplace. So yeah, that's and yeah, so then from working mums, we have set up working dad's. Obviously, gender equality at home and at work is really crucial and there's a big link between the two. So we have chains who hands are working dad's site and we've just started in the last year working wise, which is for people who are over fifty. So we aiming to do the whole work life cycle at some point. And it was it was it was quite...

...an able at because we were doing a lot of obviously I'm working mums, about returners, menopause and those kind of carer issues as well. So it just made sense to go and I think as we've all got older as well, we was in that next days of life. But working wise is the month, that not month working waiss the for men and women. So it's for everyone. I A thing. So you're very busy with lots going on. Yes, it's been incredibly busy in the last, you know, a few months. We in from March, basically when we went into lockdown. You know that some of the staff, quite a lot the stuff, were furloughed, but on the editorial side it was really we had like big spikes of obviously people coming and asking for information, because everybody was desperate for information about childcare particular, and the information that there was wasn't not very clear. So it was all of quite case of sort of trying to look at the guidance and actually, you know, look at every single word in the guidance. Basically what you could you know. What did does it actually mean? Yeah, because you know, I mean you must just I mean, I know, I know, just from my experience and from from talking to other mums, the child has situated in lockdown was just a nightmare and it made it so difficult for a lot of mums to work at all and certainly to work effectively. So you must have seen it. Quite a lot of people really struggling with with that issue, really struggling. We had so we had partners, we had parents of and and mum's coming on to the site asking question. So the mums you know who, particularly mums of very young children, which must have been absolutely, really, really difficult, my children a little bit older and also in a munths, with kids with special needs, kids with underlying health conditions, parents with underlying health conditions, all of those kind of things. Single parents, single parents who are working on the front line, may be working shifts where there was no childcare available, sort of night shifts and stuff like that. That was, you know, that the some of the cases. It just, you know, you were just like you just wanted to help and give some information, but the information was not you know, there was information available. Have you seen employers being willing to help with them, to try and sort of thought that situation out, or if it has, they've been a bit more of just out you know, that's your problem. Yeah, I think it varies very, very much. I think there's a huge I mean there's always been a huge divide between good practice and and they're not so good practice, and I think that's probably become a bit of a cavern over the last few months. And Yeah, I so good. There is very good practice out there and the people that come on our round tables are, you know, doing amazing things often and there's been a lot of kind of like you know, reducing of expectations, a lot of flexibility that they you know, they understand that somebody might have to work early in the morning and then late in the evenings and that in the middle time of the day is not a good time, or whatever it might be. And there's also understanding that working very early in the morning and very late at night it's not, you know, a sustainable thing for a very long period of time. You're just exhausted, particular if you got children that wake up during the night as well. So there is understanding about that and I know some employers are sort of just, you know, just reduce St expectations and just and then other people in the team of sort of coming and, you know, helped and that kind of thing, but it's it's trying to get to do that in a way that doesn't create presentment or I think. I think there's you know, they set up parents networks and those kind of things to give support and and and sort of particular slack channels and all of that kind of thing so people can going to give each other advice and just, you know, just have a space to say that this is awful,...

...you know, just say I am exhausted, I can't do this. That's really important. And and also having those parent those networks feeding then to the to hr and too, and then maybe inter senior leadership makes everybody aware of, you know, just what it's like. Yeah, it's okay. And have you seen, because work with Mums and dad's and you have that but experience of both. Do you see a really big difference in the way mums are being treated with regards to childcare and dealing with the sort of lookdown issues versus how DADS finding it? Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's definitely our survey show, and it's just the same as a lot of the reserve that shows that mums have definitely carried the you know, the weight of the birds. Enough Child Care in homeschooling, and I think I'll say I'm just looking at me because I've got written down here, but I think they showed lives. Really only sixteen percent said that they have been equal sharing of child care and homeschooling. Six and that didn't you know that? It been one six. Yeah, and that was regardless of whether they worked at the women work full time or not. So something here. So and it's quite interesting when you kind of drill down into the reasons that they give. And sometimes in some cases it's just that they, you know, their partner works longer hours or is not in there not a rating, not in the house. I was working outside the home and all works more intensively, although you can that's an interesting question as well to sort of pick apart. But other if but a lot of them just said it. It's just it's always been me. So therefore that's why I have done it. But I think dad's, you know, the Working Dad's side of things shows that the dads have done more. It's just it's just that balance of the dads have done more than they usually do, but the mums have done a lot more than they usually do as well. So it's difference between the moon and if they were already doing a lot more and they've done even more than it's less. It's yeah, I feel that I'm and I mean it does depends so much on your employer as well, because I know you know, yeah, from our side of things, I mean my husband's work of been fantastic. They've been phenomenally you know, if he's needed to to look after our daughter, if he's needed to take us somewhere, because you just do anything. His bosses just been like Yaps, fine. When look down started, we said, you know, from the beginning, I need to work full time, he needs to work full time. We're going to have to split the childcare. So we worked half a day each and his hit. I mean I obviously I I'm self employe to I can up my angrels, but and you know, if they him, he had to get that okayed by his boss. But hit they were like yet that's fine, you've got kids, of course you have to. You have to look after your child. So they've been brilliant and really supportive, but it's so depends on that employer being willing to be supportive and I imagine, you know, when you talk to employers, do you find they that you know, that they are keen to be supportive or, as you know, is it sort of do they see it as as just to cut at you and it irritation that these these people have got these children to look after and it's distracting them from their job? Yeah, well, but well, the employers that we're speaking to are ones that are, you know. So if the employers at work with us on the site, they actually get the whole flags working things. So we're probably not. They're not the sort of but the main, the average employee maybe, but and certainly we know from the Dad Surveys that sometimes that Dad's face, if you know, quite a lot of barriers with flexible work, or have done in the past with flexible working, where it's just assumed that you know, why isn't your partner doing it, or what? What you know? What? Why should you be doing it? And and dad's I think one thing...

...that's definitely come through from this is that Dad's want to do you know, they want to continue working or they what they they they don't want want to continue working flexibly. So that I think that's going to be a big sort of positive that comes from that. But we do know that there are employers who are not you know, who are being very, very difficult. We get a lot of questions in. We're getting a lot of questions in at the moment about shift work and people shift patterns being changed and it obviously being really difficult around childcare and of course employers are in a really difficult situation so they're just trying to sort of survive. But that can be really difficult if it's just sort of laid it's just how it's done. There's got to be a kind of consultation and some sort of recognition of some of the challenges that people face, because what are you supposed to do if you just don't have any child care cover? Absolutely, when you when you said of when you're reading out to employees to get involved in what you do and to be part of the jobs board and part of that network in in general, you know, and in the before times, before before the apocalypts happened and D do you find a lot of resistance for an employees to the idea of flexible working? Is it? Is it something that a lot of people are quite open to now or yeah, feel about that. I mean it's certainly changed since Jillian started the website. I think it was really difficult in the early days and people just didn't you know, didn't get it or didn't want to do it. Thought it was a kind of favor basically to be done to mom's only and they were kind of lesser, you know, they were not really proper workers in that's it was just aside, you know, they were they were put on that sideline. They're not really that interested in their career kind of thing. So definitely there's been progress since then and I think technology has had a big role as well in that and enabling sort of remote working and stuff like that and so but there's still a lot of reserve, you know. Well, certainly pre coovid there was a lot of resistance to things like remote working and they were still very kind of additional views about or job share is still a really difficult one to in in our survey's job share, the job share percentage sort of sticks very stubbornly at certain level and it doesn't really get much further than that, which is a shame. But yeah, there's all sorts of different forms of flexibility and some, some employers particularly the same's the larger sames. So you get there's a difference between their the small the kind of start up ones which tend to be quite dynamic and flexible and or offer you know, quite a lot of parents help their own kind of companies and and make them deliberately as flexible as possible because they they've left their corporate job because it wasn't flexible. You get all of that and there. But when the company becomes slightly bigger, then they start sort of creating their own policies, hr policies and stuff like that, and that kind of almost makes it more cements it. It makes it more less flexible because they can't take into it at individual sort of circle. That's things like that and you get, certainly before covid you know that the May focus was on parts. When they sort of thought about flexible working, it was mainly about part time workers and they didn't there wasn't a lot of sort of Flexi time or Flexi, you know, compressed hours or turn time working or analyze work it, all of that kind of stuff. There wasn't an embrace of the larger kind of flexible working picture. I think that's true. To say. Yeah, and in within organizations, and I think a lot of organ even the best ones,...

...recognize that they have pockets of resistance. What they and pockets of resistance and it's about how do you change the culture overall, but also tackle those pockets of resistance. And and one of the really interesting things is one of the things that we found even before covid was remember talking to a law firm and what they did was they started a remote law illegal team that work remotely, and through starting that team it was like a pilot project. They were able to show that it works. So where people would be resistant because it was more of a theoretical idea remote working, like it's never going to work in our profession block, you know, all that kind of thing, when they're shown that actually works, then it's more difficult to to counter that and covid has been a big example of that. And now, you know, a lot of the employers are employers. Say you look now we it's very difficult for those people who are resisting to say that it doesn't work because we've actually does. Yeah, even though remote working and Covid is nothing like remote working normally it's, you know, emergency working as that's the thing, isn't it? If it works in this situation, then imagine how brilliantly it would work if, yeah, the world wasn't ending er up. Yeah, yeah, the space that's so helpful in it if you've got those concrete examples to show. And then you demonstrated its works and, as you say, covid been the biggest remote working flexible working experiment in the world because we've had to show that with them, with everybody. So it's sermon. Yeah, it's proved to a lot of businesses. People they can do it, but actually they can. What I didn't yeah, I'm just going to say. At the same time, I think what we saw in September is going to you know, that higherhold back to work thing. I think it's going to be really interesting to see what happens because obviously all the surveys that are coming back are saying that, you know, people want to work flexibly sort of going forward. The hybrid working where you work partly in the office and then partly at home, is the is the you know, comes out way aheads of what people want, and that's and a lot of employers are surveying their their staff and that's been part of the whole covid experience. They engaged more with their with their staff and have a sort of better idea maybe of what they want. And you've got that. But you've got the kind of economic imperative of supporting all the commuter type, you know, the businesses that are around commuters and that kind of things, that it's going to be a lot of pressure to return to some form of whatever normality is. But I don't think that's what a lot of people want. Yeah, I think it's going to be very difficult because I think a lot of people that you say are just going to be like well, I've been working flexibly or remotely for, you know, six best part of the year now. A lot of people aren't planning and going back into the office anytime soon. So have I'm worked remotely this long. I think it's going to be very difficult for employers to insist people go back in. But, as you say, there's a little pressure coming from the government and the more traditional approaches and the economic impacts of get people back into the office. As that's that's going to be a challenge for employers to navigate, I think isn't over the next year. Yes, and also that whole kind of narrative that there's still sort of lingers of that, you know, get back to work as if you're not working when you're working from home, which is really irrit because I know, I don't think I've ever worked harder. We know, and I had a rant in a previous episode about the whole get back to work campaign that the government running. Because, yeah, absolutely that. We've been we've been working and we've been working in the most challenging circumstances and it's been arect. Yes, suggestion. Everyone...

...needs to go back to work. Now it's just I got rather furious about that. Yes, rightly so. Do you had you encourage businesses done? What could you you say to people? Are the benefits of flexible working and the different types of flexible working and job sharing and things like that? What can they you know? Why is why is it a good thing for employers to have that in the yeah, well, first of all, or there's, you know, being able to recruit, you know, the best, you know, whatever the talent, get the widest pool of talent possible, reached out to as many people as you can and then to retain those people. So that's that's a huge you know cost, I guess, or the advertising, what have you, but also retraining and the experience that you lose if people do leave, and people have been leaving and setting up as a certain either setting up their own governanies or going somewhere else. And then there's, you know, reduced sickness levels, there's increased well being generally, there's increased engagement with the employer if they feel that they're actually there is a two way flexibility, because that that's a big issue as well, the two way flexibility, because we have seen flexibility rising, but in some cases it's been flexibility that's more in the favor of the employer and it's given flexible working a kind of bad name, because if it's only one way, it doesn't actually work. So yes, there's all sorts of different benefits. So, yeah, engagement with with the organization, motivation, all those, all those different sort of things I think are huge. I mean just makes makes sense, makes sense all around. Yeah, absolutely. Kind you do it, how you kind of embed it, how you because I think some some employers who maybe haven't been used to it see it as like this really really challenging, huge sort of headache. You know, they've got to sort of you know, think of how how different people, how different sort of members of teams are going to work together. But I think if you do break it down on to the team level, then then it it's you know, it's about it's about giving support to line managers to be able to do it properly and it's it is a bit of a Jigsaw sometimes with if people are doing different sort of patterns, but you know, the the benefits are huge. Yeah, definitely. So what are some of the best, best work approaches you seen businesses taking? She fots about your awards for best practice in there and they work. You do around that? Do you must see some really innovative approaches and some some really great things coming out. What what are some some good examples that you can share so inspire people? I mean there's all sorts of things that so were happening before covid sort of on the whole kind of recruitment side of thing, like agile recruitment, where you would so employers like laid's Bank. They had like a whole. So every job speck that comes in, so every line manager that says we need somebody for this particular job. You know, the the HR team would they had to tick why it had to be done in a certain way if it couldn't be done flexibly. They had to explain why couldn't it be done flexibly and then they would be challenged by the HR manager. You know why? I can't it be done flexibly. So so, yeah, because I think, yes, there's a tendency to just fall into the well, we've always that job's always been done in this particular way, so it can't be done any other way. So just trying to have those conversations to people to think and and though there's sort of pressure in parliament to, you know, have have a law on default, flexibility and all that kind of stuff, it's just how you how do you make it work on the ground, and that's where I think employers, you know, what employers are doing and how they're doing that is really interesting...

...and it is about those conversations and just, you know, just getting that sort of going. A week we find that when we are sort of sales team who are doing the job adverts, a lot of their job is not just, you know, just sales. It's educate. You know, it's having those conversations and saying, well, couldn't that job maybe, when you put that job back averting, could you just mention, you know, that it could be done in this you know they're open to conversation about flexible working. Does it really have to be like this? You know, why have you put you why if you put that there and all that kind of thing. So it's just making them, asking them, asking people questions and making them challenge what they kind of received. Thinking yeah, yeah, because you fall into those patterns, don't you have all this is just the way it is, and you until somebody questions you on that, you don't think the question make yourself. So it's good to have that problem of wait, why Ay you doing it this way? Yeah, a good thing of question of all working process. There's been so much that's come up during covid as well in terms of best practice. We've had round tables on divesting inclusion, on mental well being, on on women in the workplace, on all sorts of different issues. But you know, I the things that came out recently was department for transports have used asynchronous interviews during covid. So that was that was and there was quite a lot of interest in that in the round table. So what what they do is you can actually record your interview at any time of the day or night. You have a kind of two week window to record the interview. They send you a link to a website and then you have a timed you can't re record, you have a time slot and then the questions come up on the screen and you respond to the questions. And that is something that it might not, you know, suit everybody. That might people. Some people might like the kind of more interaction, human interaction sort of side of things, but during covid that has been really, really useful for them and it's meant that they've been able to, you know, get to a cut much wider group of people, including people with disabilities, but also that parents that have had to homeschool and all that kind of stuff. So they are keen to sort of take that forward and use it, you know, maybe, you know, as one of their sort of ways of running interviews in the future. Yeah, and there's been a huge focus on mental well being as well and we've seen lots of really innovative things that employers have done. Got Really gone beyond you know, they've really sort of looked into how they how they support staff with, you know, line manager train line manager training is like them, you know, line managers absolutely crucial to all this, but also supporting line managers, rewarding line managers for diversting, inclusion sort of issues and engagement and those kind of things. So those those you know, employers are looking at all different aspects of what they do. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, and I love that. I Day of the interviews. That such an interesting idea but, as you say, it opens up to so many different people we can and act as everything easier. Brilliant. Yes, yeah, I think it's quite because we used to run we have a franchises section on the on the website, so we also cover self employment and freelancing and all the kind of things as well, but we used to run a franchise awards ceremony and and I did it, used to do a report on the winners as well, and that always made me because they were often organizations that have been run by women, set up by women, often parents, to give other people kind of you know, that that option of being able to find your own business but have the framework that's already set. So you know that it's been, you know, successful elsewhere and...

...you've got the support as well. But some of the ideas that come up in that, the way that the franchises, the really good franchises, support the franchise's and are all working remotely because they're all connected via the Internet and Facebook, support groups and all that kind of stuff. I think there's a lot that can be taken from that by employers. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, go and I go and check out the working mom's website. Everything read reader for on some of these these initiatives are going on, because there's some, yeah, really, really exciting and into things and it is just about challenging that way of thinking and pushing yourself to think outside the books a little bit and and do things differently. And also, on the topic of women going out and starting their own businesses and doing things, because that's very much what happened with me. I had my little girl and left my corporate job to go and set up on my own because that made much more sense having a child and it was really the only option of having a child. And it's we're talking on. It's the twenty of November today, it's equal payday, so this is the last day of the year that women are being paid effectively because of the gender pay gap. We're working for free for there are for the year now, which is mildly frustrating. There is obviously still a massive issue for women in the workplace, the gender pay gap being just part of it, and we've seen a code a lot more mum's being furloughed than Dad's, a little more parents being furled than anybody, but and more more mum's, more women being made redundant using the job and there's obviously still a huge way to go until we've got a kind of equal playing fields, but for men and women. And do you have you seen much happening with the businesses that you work with in terms of tackling that gender pay gap? And also, I think there's another issue as well, asn't there with flexible working that sometimes businesses think will okay, I can give you factual working, but then I can pay you less. You know, DODC, DODC businesses tackling that, that pay gap, or is it still something that's pressure to the back a little bit? Yeah, I think that some businesses are tackling that so those who haven't. So there's a big difference also between the employers that have been really hard hit by Covid and haven't been Ol to function properly, and that's often been businesses insectors that are a lot of women are in hospitality, we tell and all those kind of stuff's such a mixed picture because also women are very dominant in the front line in the kind of health and education and all that kind of thing. But yes, I do think that some of those employers are definitely they're very sort of focused and they have very good so when they do their gender pay reports, they are have kind of an action plan and they do folk on that and they realized and they've sort of looked in detail the reasons why there's a gender pay that, which is often because there's not many women in their higher ranks of organization. And sometimes the action that they take to counter that actually worsens their gender pay gap because if they're in industries where there's few women and they get a lot of women in through into they've gone out and they've done a lot of outreach and stuff and bought in women on the lower in the lower ranks, the graduates of area they take a while. So then work they up to the top. But that's the beginning because they've got more than in the in the lower ranks. It affects their gender and if it even if one woman, if they've got, you know, hardly any women at the top, if one woman leaves, that really sort of skews the figures. But in general, I mean the the gender pay. You know the thing was suspended that the government suspended the gender pagert reporting this year and you know, we feel that's...

...a really sort of certain, really negative message to people and let's see what happens next year and it will be really important to watch what the figures are because, as you say, I've been talking a lot about good practice in the best practice here and we know that there's you know, there's a there's a huge issue with women dropping out of the work and I know this has been reported around that, you know, the US and stuff as well, with big McKenzie report came out in September, I think, Mackenzie and leaning, and they were talking about this massive sort of drop out of women from the workforce and that whole lack of recognition within the sort of this sort of structures the pay structures and the and the promotion structures of what women have had to deal with in the last few months, and it generally has been women. So, for example, you know, when figures come out on product there was, I think there was a put out the other day on productivity and it showed, you know, women were less productive or what why? You know, if you're looking at you know, women, maybe not, maybe won't put themselves forward for a promotion if they've absolutely exhausted after having to us keep going over the last few months. Do you do your you know, the the processes that you have for for the deciding bonuses and and all that kind of thing? Do they take into account what has been happening in the last few months? You know, it's not enough to, you know, just provide support. You've got to actually look at the structures that you have so that you know, to know what the impact is going to be on pay in going and under career aggression for women. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's such an important point actually to think about. Do you do you see it changing? Do you, because we're you know, we've been talking a lot and watch the space about the future of work and what the future is going to look like now, if covid has reset things and all given businesses and opportunity to rethink what they do, where we're kind of go from head? Do you see that that approach to the women and some mother's do you see that changing? Do you see the you know, things getting better anytime soon? You are you optimistic about the future? I didn't even yeah, I I'm not a sort of like it's going to be great, look, this is a great opportunity kind of person. I know that there's a lot of that kind of going on and sometimes that kind of very positive spin. It's like, well, because we getting in a lot of questions from people who are being made redundant and and we know from, you know, previous recessions and stuff, you know that it's very difficult to get back into work the longer that you're out of work, that they you know there was a big spike in self employment after the last recession, that a lot of the people who are in self employment are not really able to make a proper living way to they and they've been really hit self employed by COVID did. So there's there's there's optimistic things and there's there's some mystic things. So on the optimistic front, on the flexible working side of things, I do think that this hybrid working particularly and and remote working generally are going to be more of a thing in the future. I'm I my I'm sort of really interesting flexible working really and I think that in the last few months it's just been seen as remote working. And it's quite interesting that the NS figures show that part time working has been particularly hit by Covid so. And yet there's quite a lot of campaigning, for sure, you know, four day week and short term working and that kind of thing, so that the pain is...

...spread a little bit more. So let's see what happens. I'm not sure what's going to happen with that, but definitely I think a lot of employers will go forward with hybrid working. They've seen that they can make it work. They can save money, which will be a big fut of issue. I'm very interested in this whole you know the Deutsche Bank report that came out about axing remote workers and interested to see whether that there's going to be more on that and paying people were remotely less, and if those people who work remotely tend to be women and there's more. There's still this kind of C loss put on people who work in the office. You know, there's a kind of hierarchy. Then that quite but hopefully, hopefully, the dad's wills, things stick in there and I'm so normalize it more and then on the on the net, on the more negative side, I guess I shouldn't really end on the negative side. To the whole, the whole labor market has flipped. So as we were coming up to covid there was a huge and this still is. There's a lot of skills shortages in a lot of areas and we've got brexit. So and that will have an impact on job losses but also skills shortages in different areas. So there's a as a big retraining agenda in there. But yes, as I said before covid they employers needed to get out to a more diverse you know, they needed to get more people in, they needed to widen the talent pool, and now they've got the opposite where they're going to have a lot of people looking for jobs, and so we need to keep an eye on on that and make sure that they still diversty in inclusion is still really an all forms of diverse inclusion, which are often interrelated, are kept on the agenda. Definitely, I space. That's the thing, isn't it? It's what's happening at the moment does present an opportunity, but it's very much about how businesses respond to that and how they how they choose to take them which direction they used to go in. So so to end on a positive note, what would you what would you like to see in the future? How to have, you think, businesses kids response in a positive way to make things better and create a better future for parents and women and everybody in general. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm hoping that more business are will. Certainly, you know, the ones that we are speaking to are more in touch with what their employees want, that this has been a big exercise on the mental health side, that that there's that there's much more recognition of wellbeing issues and and of line managers have had to be more in touch with everybody. So a lot of employers have, you know, the line managers has been sort in regular contact by a zoom and stuff like that. They've seen inside people's homes basically, you know, they've seen what what's going on people all the other issues and things, maybe that people in within teams know each other a little bit more and there's more of a recognition of all those things and that there's great a greater sense of engagement there and that that will feed through into sort of more recognition of why it makes business sense to, you know, to understand your employees more and and and what motivates them, because in the long term this is all going to be, you know, knowing that what works best getting the best talent, you know, the broadest boardest. So in the broadest sense, having diverse teams that reflect your customers or clients or whatever it is, is going to be good for business as well as for employees. Absolutely sed it faster myself. That's yeah, absolutely brilliantly to end. God,...

Mandy, thank you so much for talking to me today. I really appreciate it. That was incredibly interesting and there's some really useful things for everybody to go away and think about. And where can they find more information? Where could, where should they go to find more about working mums and all of the resources and amazing stuff that you've produced right well, it's working mums dot co dot UK. And then for the DADS working dad's DOT CO DOT UK and for the over s working wiseco dot UK, brilliant. I cannot encourage everyone enough to go and check that out because there's some incredible work for you're doing a brilliant things that you're producing, so everybody should go and look at that. And thank you, Mandy. It's a brilliant talking to you. Thank you everybody for listening and we will see you again on the next episode. Every imagination at work. Very Much.

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