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Working Mums with Mandy Garner

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Why should we be supporting mothers in the workplace and how can we do it? Allegra talks to Mandy Garner, Editor of Working Mums, Working Dads and Working Wise, about the benefits of creating an environment that works for parents, and the technological solutions available to organisations, as well as best practice approaches. 

  • How have attitudes changed to working parents?
  • What impact has the pandemic had on how employers approach flexible working?
  • Isn't hiring mums just doing them a favour? (Erm, no...)
  • What are some innovative ways to offer flexible access to existing and prospective employees?

Tune in to find out!

For more information on Working Mums, visit workingmums.co.uk 

For the dads, visit workingdads.co.uk and for the over 50s it's workingwise.co.uk 

Iamone of the crators of watch thisspace, we are slcpthispodcast a wok in the withecommunity. We are on a miseat to help businesses reimagine and Ey thingeverything that they're do lik, Anis to Creatediversan, ines working practicesand working ooment working on scape for everybody. I am really really excited to be joinedby Mantigana, who is the editor of working MON MANTIFEX? So much fortaiting me today, Yeasur to tell us a little bit about workingmoms and what you do. Okay, great thanks very much for inviting me soworking mams were started a long time ago. Nowita seems a long time,twothousand and six, and it was set up by Jillian Nissim andite was Te Cup brander kitchen table. Basically she have had this issuearound. You know how do you find flexfle new jobs? It's not ongoing issue, but at the timeit was really really difficult, and so she contacted organization. So shethought were kind of sort of friendly towards earflaxfor, working and and itsort of went from there. It started as a job spoard. It's still a job spoardfor flexible new roles, whatever that flexibility means- and I came on board in two thousand andseven to do all the editorial sort of side of things, and that includesadvice and support. We have a kind of panel of employment law experts andother expert coaches and stuff like that who answer people's questions, andthen I do lots of interviews with people in vies withMOMS interviews with employers or every sort of aspect of news thattouches on working parents, basically Anda Les Kin Inclusion and then Yeah. We also have an awards ceremony.So once a hear, we have our top employer awards ceremony, whichhighlights best practice and that's been really really successful. It'sbeen going for over ten years now and Withem this year, we're doing it withwe normally do it in November and we're doing it in January this year and we'redoing it obviously online like everything and we're just sort ofcelebrating the best practice around covid o. You know we'v Sort regig. Theawards got big folks on mental health, for example, and and we also on the back of that, wewrite- I write a best practice report, so I write up interviews with all ofthe winners and the aim is basically to share what what they're doing and givepeople ideas and stimulate conversations and off the back of thatas well. We've now got a series of used to be kind of round tables whereemployers came together to discuss them, sort of various different themes, butare now obviously online. So we've got virtual round tables and they've allbeen covid focuse in the last few months, so yeah we just and we just did.We just had a around table Ook at a kind of really interesting one onempathy in the workplace, so yeah, that's and yeah. So then, fromworking moms we have set up working dads. Obviously,gender equality at home and at work is really crucial and there's a IE glimpbetween the two. So we have anes who an or working dadsite andwe've just started in the last year, working wise, which is for people whoare over fifty an so we aiming to do the whole work lifecycle at some point,and it was it was, was quite an overlap...

...because we were doing a lot ofobviously inm working mams about returners Menopaus and those kind ofCara issues as well. So it just made sense to go, and I think, as we've allgot older as well, we were seing that next phase of life, butworking wise, is the mom that I not mane working wers, an stor for men andwomen, so it's Verinso you're, very busy wire lots going on. Yes, it's beenincredibly busy in the last. You know few months we in from March. Basically, when we went into lockdown, you know that th some of the staff,quite a Lov, the stuff with Furlowd, but on the editorial side it it wasreally. We had like big spikes of obviously people coming and asking forinformation, because everybody was desperate for information about childcare, in particular, and the information that there was wasn't notvery clear. So it was all of quite case of sort of trying to look at theGuidance and actually you K, ow, look at every single word in the guidance,basically hink. What you could you know? What did? Does it actually mean yeah,because you I mean you must just I mean I know Y I ned just fon my ownexperience and from from talking to other MOMS, the the child CAS situation, an dok downwas just a nightmare. It US made it so difficult for a lot of Mons to work atall and N, certainly to work effectively tsat. You must have seen itquite a lot of people really struggling with. With that issue really struggling,we had so we had partners, we had parents of and and MOMS coming on tothe site, asking questions so the mums. You know who particularly mands of veryyoung children, which must have been absolute, really really difficult. Mychildren are a little bit older and also n Amans, with kids, with specialneeds. Kids with underlying health condition,parents with underlying health conditions, all of those kind of things- singleparents, single parents who are working on the front line, maybe working shiftswhere there was no childcare, available, sort of night shifts and stuff likethat. That was you know they some of the cases it just you know you w ere,just like you just wanted to help and give some information, but theinformation was not. You know T it was information available. Have you seen employers being willingto help to try and sort of sort that situation out or, as they've been a bitmore of just out o? You know that Sho proble yeah. I think it varies very, very much.I think, tere's a huge. I mean, there's always been a hutified between goodpractice and and they're, not so good practice, and I think that's probablybecome a bit of a cavern over the last few months and yeah I so God there is very goodpractice out there and the people that come on around tables. Are you knowdoing amazing things often and there's been a lot of kind of, like you know, reduce sing of expectations,a lot of flexibility that they you know. They understand that somebody mighthave to work early in the morning and then late in the evenings and thatmiddle time of the day is not a good time or whatever it might be, and tit'salso understanding that working very early in the morning and very late atnight. It's not you know a sustainable thing for a very long period of time,you're just exhausted, particularly if you got children that wake up duringthe nights. Well, so there is understanding about that,and I know some employers, ave sort of justyou know just redumes Teir expectations and just and then other people in theteam, ave sort of coming and you know helped and that kind of thing, but istrying to get to do that in a way that doesn't create presentment or I think I think, Thee's. You know theyset up parents, networks and those kind of things to give, support and and andsort of particular slack channels and all of that kind of thing, so peoplecan going to give each other advice and just w just Havig a space to say tat.This is awful, you know just say I am...

...exhausted. I can't do this. That's really important and and alsohaving those parret there's networks, feeding then to the to h other and toand then maybe into senior leadership makes everybody aware of. You know justwhat it's like yeah. Definitely and have you seen because work with momsand Dads, and you have that that experience of both you do you see areally big difference in the way MOMS are being treated with regards to childcare and dealing with the sort of lookdown issues versus how DADS ArFinding it yeah I mean yeah, there's. Definitely our surveyshow- and it's just the same as a lot of the reserves that shows that MOMShave definitely carried the you know the weight of the burden of child careand homeschooling, and I think I'll sayve I'm just lookingat because I've got written down here. I think they showed like it was reallyonly. Sixteen percent said that they hav been equal sharing of childcare andhomeschoolruling. I and that, didn't you know sixteen one six yeah and that was regardless of whether they worked atthe women work full time or not so sometig year. So and it's quite interesting when youkind of drill down into the reasons that they give and Somei in some cases it's just thatTheyr, you know their partner works, long, Terhous or is not in there, not arat not in the house and is working outside the home and or works more intensively. Althoughyou can that's an interesting question as well:Sorto Bika part but other if a bit, but a lot of them just said it's just. It'salways been me. So, therefore, that's why I have done it, but I think that's you know. TheWorking Dad's side of things shows that the dads have done more. It's just it's just that balance of the days havedone more than they usually do, but the moms have done a lot more than theyusually do as well. So it's e difference between the MOV and if theywere already doing a lot more and they've done even more than it's ieandI mean it does depend so much on your employer as well, because I know nfromOu side of things. I mean my husband's work ir in fantastic they've beenphenomenal Tan. You know, if he's needed to tothe copdror daughter, ifhe's needed to take her, some of He needs Tu do anything his possagus de,like yp, fine, when lock downstarsaid, we said you know for the beginning. Ineed to work full time. He needs to work fulltime we're going to have tosplit the child car, so we worked half a day and his it. I mean I obviouslyI'm so employed. So I can let my angles better and you know the he had toy getthat ocage by his bossbit it they were like. Yet that's fine. You've got kids.Of course you have to you av O, look aft your child, sothey've been brilliant and really supportive, but it's so depends on thatemployer being willing to be supportive- and I imagine you know when you talk toemployers, do you find that you know that they are keen to be supportive oryou know, is it sort of do they see it cas just to cutit you an in irritationthat these these people have got these children to look after and it'sdistructing Tom from ther job yeah? Well, well, the employers thatwe're speaking to ar ones that you know. So, if the employs tat work with us onthe site, they actually get the whole blex working things so we're probablynot they're, not thi, sort of the main the average employer. Maybe,but- and certainly we know from the dead surveys that sometimes that Dad'sface you know quite a lot barriers with felexfol whort Orl have done in thepast, with Flex Bol working, where it's just assumed that you know why isn'tyour partner doing it or Wat what you know, what why should you be doing itand and dads? I think one thing that's...

...definitely come through from this. Isthat dads want to do you know they want to continue working or they what theythey they don't want want to continue working flexibly so that I think that'sgoing to be a big sort of positive that comes from that, but we do know thatthere are employers who are not. You know who are being very, very difficult.We get a lot of questions, ind we're getting a lot of questions in at themoment about shift work, peoples, shift patterns, being changed and obviouslybeing re really difficult around child care and, of course, employers are in areally difficult situation, so they're just trying to sort of survive, but that can be freelly difficult ifit's just sort of laid. It's just how it's done. There's got to be a kind ofconsulcation and some sort of recognition of some of the challengesthat people face, because what are you supposed to do, if you just don't, haveany child care cover? Absolutely when you, when you sort of when you're reaching out to employees, to getinvolved in in what you do and to be part of the job board and part of thatnetwork in general? What you know, but and inthe four times befr for the APOCALYP Capen d, do you find a lot of resistance, fomemployeers to the idea of flexible working? Is it? Is it something that alot of people that Lok quite open to now yeah eabout it I mean it's certainlychanged since Julian started the the website. I think it was reallydifficult in the early days and people just didn't, you know, didn't, guess itor didn't want to do. It thought it was a kind of favor basically to be done toMOM's only, and they were kind of lesser. You knowI they were not really proper workers in that it was just aside. You knowthey were, they would put on that sideline they're, not really thatinterested in their career kind of thing. So definitely there's been progresssince then, and I think technology his had a bigrole as well in that enabling sort of remote, working and stuff like that, and so, but there's still a lot of risthat you know ware. Certainly precovid. There was a lot of resistance to thingslike premote, working and ther were still very kind oftraditional views about or job share is still a really difficult one to in it.In our surveys, job share the job, shef percentage sort of sticks verystubbornlysonol, and it doesn't really get much further than that, which is is a shame but yeah there's all sorts of differentforms of flexibility and from some employes, particularly the MES, the larger esumes. So you getthere's a difference between Thei, the small, the kind of STARTU ones, whichtend to be quite dynamic and flexable and Ar offe. You know quite a lotof arnhelp their own kind of companies and make them deliberately as flexful aspossible, because theyve left their corporate job because it wasn'tflexible, you get all of that and ther, but when the company becomesslightly bigger, then they start sort of creating theirown policies. Hor Policies and stuff like that, and that kind of almostmakes it more Cementsi e. It makes it more less flexible because they can'ttake it into aaunt individual Soof circltsand things like that, and you get certainly before covid. Youknow that the MA focus was on parts when they sort of thought about flex orworking. It was mainly about parttime workers and they didn't there wasn't alot of sort of flexy time or flexy. You know compressed hours or termtime,working or Annelyze Worki. All of that kind of stuff. There wasn't an embraceof the larger kind of flexible working picture. I think, that's true to sayYeah Soand, I within organizations, and...

I think a lot of on that. Even the bestones recognize that they have pockets of resistance, what they call pocketsof resistance, and it's about. How do you change the culture overall, but also tacklethose pockets of resistance and, and one of the really interestingthings is one of the things that we found even before, covid was EmemberToky to a law firm and what they did was. They started a remote law, a legalteam that were remotely and through starting that team. It waslike a pilot project. They were able to show that it works sowhere people would be resistant because it was more of a theoretical idea.Remote working, you know like that. It's never going to work in ourprofession, IU. All that kind of thing when theyre shown they actually works.Then it's more difficult to to counter that and COVID has been a big exampleof that and now you know a lot of the employers. Our employers say. Look nowit's very difficult for those people who are resisting to say that itdoesn't work because we've it actually does yeah, even though remote workingin Covid is nothing like romate working. Normally, it's you know: emergencyworking as Thot Hhe thing! Isn't it if it works in this situation, but imaginehow brillianty it would work. Yeah the world wasn't ending around yeah yeah pace that so helpful. Is itif you've got those concrete examples to to show, and then you demonstrateedits work. As you say, covid's been the biggest roommate working fexble workingexperiment in the world. Becausewe've had to Shawe that with then witheverybody. So it's Sominy yeah proved to a lot of businessis Ye feelt.They couldn't do it, but actually yeah they can what II yeah I just goingtosay at the same time, I think what we saw in September is going to. You knowthat highhold back to work thing. I think it's going to be reallyinteresting to see what happens because obviously eal the surveys that arecoming back and saying that you know people want to work. fexably sort ofgoing forward and hybrid working where you work partly in the office and thenpartly at home, is the is the you know comes out way ahead of what people want and that's and a lot of employers aresurveying, thei their stuff and that's been part of the whole covid experience.They E be engaged more with their with their staff and have a sort of betteridea, maybe of what they want and you've got that, but you've got thekind of economic imperative of supporting the commuter type. You knowthe businesses that are around commuters and that kind of things hatit's going to be a lot of pressure to return to some form of whatevernormality is, but I don't think that's what a lot ofpeople want. Yeah. I think it's going to be very difficult because thine, alot of people that you say ar just going to be like we lik, I workinglexibly or remotely you know six well best part of the year. Now a lot ofpeople a't planning going back into the office any time soon. So, having workedremotely this lown, I think it's going to be very difficult for employers toinsist. People go back in, but you say it was a lot of pressure coming fromthe government and the more traditional approaches and the economic impacts ofget people back into the office. An this thats that's going to be achallenge. Brinpoyis nother gate, I think, is t over the next year, yes,and also that whole kind of narrative that there's still sort of lingers Fthat you know get back to work as if you're, not working when you're workingfrom home, which is really ir because I o, I don't think I've ever workedharder. Emo And I had a rant in a previousepisode about the whole getback to work campaign that the government runningoncas yeah, absolutely that we think we've been working and we've beenworking in the most challenging circumstances that it's been herrecto.Yes, I suggestion everyone needs to go...

...back to work now. Itas, just OI gotrather furious about that. Yes lit you say Yohow, do you encourage businesses?Then? What can you you say to people? Are the benefits of flexible workingand the different types of flexibor working and job sharing and things likethat? What what can they you know? Why is why? Is it a good thing foremployers to have that in Thau, yeah? Well, first of all, there's you knowbeing able to recruit. You know the the best you know, whatever the talent getthe widest pool of talent possible reached out to as many peopleas you can and then to retain those people. So that's that's a huge, you know cost I I guess Ol the advertising, whatHappyo, but also retraining the experience that you lose. If people do leave and people have benleaving and setting up as a SA either saithink theyre in companies, ore goingsomewhere else and then there's you know: reducedsickness levels, there's increased well being generally there's increasedengagement with the employer if they feel that they're actually thare is atwo way. Flexibility, because that that's a big issue as well. The two way,flexibility, because we have seen flexibility rising, but in some casesit's been flexibility, that's more in the favor of the employer and it's given flexible working, a kindof bad name, because if it's only one way, it doesn't actually work. So, yes, there's all sorts of differentbenefits. So yeah engagement, H with the organization motivation, all thoseall those different sort of things. I think half are huge, for I mean justbakes, make sense. It makes sense all round. NTYYEAH BOUTEL S Howd, you do it,how you kind of embed it, how you because I think some some employers whomaybe haven't been used to it, see as like. This really really challenginghuge sort of headache. You know e've got to or of Ou think of how, howdifferent peope, how different sort of members of teams are going to worktogether. But I think, if you do break it down onto the team level, then then it's you know it's about.It's about o know, giving support to line managers to to be able to do it properly and t. Itis a bit of a Digsou sometimes with. If people are doing different of patterns-but you know the benefits are huge yeah, definitely so t what are some of thegood best best wok approaches you seen businesses taking she shots about yourrewards for e Best Practicen it, and we, like you, do around that. You must seesome really illevative approaches and some some really great things comingout whatwatare some some good examples that you can share to inspired people eH, I mean there's all sorts of things that so were happening before covidsort of on the whole kind of recruitment, Sote of thing like agolrecruitment, where you would, as Tho employers like Losbang, theyhave like a whole, so every job speck that comes in so every line managerthat says that we need somebody for this particular job. You know th the HRteam. Would they had to tick why it had to be done in a certain way. If itcouldn't be done flexibly, they had to explain why, couldn't it be doneflexibly and then they would be challenged by the HR manager Ou, whycomte the don flexibly so so yeah, because I think yes tthere's atendency to just fall into this. Well, we've always that job's always beendone in this particular way, so it can't be done any other way. So justtrying to have those conversations to be people to think and- and thoughthere's sort of pressure in parliament to you know have have a law on. Youknow, default flexibility and all that kind of stuff. It's just how. How doyou make it work on the ground and that's where I think employers? Youknow what employers are doing, how they're doing that is reallyinteresting,...

...and it is about those conversations andjust you know, just getting that sort of going anwwe find out when we aresort of sales team who are doing the job adverts a lot of their job is notjust you know, just sales, it's educated. You know it's havingthose conversations and saying couldn't that job you know, maybe, when you putthat job aut at the in, could you just mention you know that it could be donein this? You know thet open to conversation about flexible working.Does it really have to be like this? You know why o you put why you put thatthere and all that kind of thing. So it's just your making them asking H,asking people questions, I'm looking them challenge what theykind of receive thinking, yeah yeah, because you fal insplace, Tacan Hat.You have all this I's just the way it is, and you and tell somebody questionsyou on that. You Si don't think to question ate yourself, so it's good tohave that promat of wait. Why re you doing it this way? Yeah, hey good thing,O question, oal working, precess, there's been so much! That's come upduring covid as well. In terms of best practice, we've had raund tables ondivestin inclusion, on mental well being on on women workplace on allsorts of different issues. TBAT, you know I othe things that came up recently was adepartent for transports, have used asincrinis interviews, toingCovid, so that was that was an, and there was quite a lot of interest inthat in the round table. So what what they do is you can actually record yourinterview at any time of the day or night. Weu have a kind of two weekwindow to recall the interview. They send you a link to a website, and thenyou have a time you can't be recored, you have a time slot and then thequestions come up on the screen and you respond to the questions, and that issomething that it might not. You know suit everybody that might people somepeople might like the kind of more interaction, human interactions, ont ofside of things, but during covid that has been really really useful for them,and it's meant that they've been able to you know get to a it. Much wider groupof people, including people's disabilities, but also the parents havehad to homeschool and all that kind of stuff. So they are keen to sort of takethat forward and use it. You know- maybe you know, as as one of their sortof ways of of running interviews and in the future. Yeah and tthere's been ahuge focus on mental wel being as well, and we've seen lots of reallyinnovative things and the employers have done got really come beyond you, knowtheyv really sort of lookedinto how they, how they support stuff. With you know, line manager, train linemanager, training is like them. You know line managers absolutely crutialto all this, but also supporting my managers, rewarding line managers forIvesting inclusions or of issues and engagement and those kind of things. So those those you know, employers arelooking at all different aspects of what they do. Yeah Yeh and I Novi O the Interne. Is thatsuch a an interesting idea, but as you say itopens up to so many different people, you can access syes. I think it's quite because we used torun. We have a franchising section on the onthe website, so we also cover selfemployment and freelancingthosekind of things as well, but we used to trying to franchise awards ceremony and- and I did it used to do areport on the Windes as well and that always made e because they were oftenorganizations that have been run by women set up by women. Often parents,to give other people kind of. You know that that option of being able to fanyour own business that have the framework that's already set. So youknow that it's been on a successful...

...elsewhere and you've got the support aswell, but somsome of the ideas that come up in that the way that thefranchises and the really good franchises support the franchisees andare working remotely because they werl connected by the Internet and facebooksupport groups and all that kind of stuff. I think there's a lot that canbe taken from that by employers yeah, definitely so yeah Gon, I Gancheck out the working onh website. Everybody read: Read a folt Om of these.These initiataives thate going up because there's Somgeah really reallyexciting and inte things, and it is just about challenging that way ofthinking and pushing yourself looking outside the books, a little bit and andDoou things differently and also onty topic of women going out and starting theirbusinesses and doing things, because that's very much what happenedwith me. I had my little Girlan and left my corporate job to go and set up in myown, because that made much more sense having a child and it was really theonly option of having a child and it's we're talking on it's theTwenti of November. Today, it's equal payday. So this is the last day of theyear that women are being paid effectively because of the gender PA APwe're working for free for the rest of the year. Now, smidy frustrating the RIS, Obviously Still Ati issue forwomen in the workplace, the Gemti Hagup being just part of it. We seen with code, not no MOMS beingperlage the dad's litmlre parents being far. They Dadn't, like anybody, butanmore, more MOMS, more women being made redumdant lusing their job andthere's obviously still a huge way to go en tim we've got it a kin, obequalplaying fields but Fommenan women. Do you? Have you seen much happeningwith businesses that you work with in terms of tacking, that Gento pay, AP and also, Ithink, there'sother issue is what isn't it with flexible working it sometimesbusinesses think will okay can give you fetful working, but then I can pay youlest you know, Doyousodo DC businesses, tackling that that pagap or is it stillsomething that's epesure to the back a little bit yeah. I think that somebusinesses are tackling that. So those who haven't so there's a big differencealso between the employers that have been really hard hit by Kovid and haveem in El to function properly and that's often been businesses in sectorsthat are a lot of women are in hospitality. We can and all those kindof stuff it's such a mix picture because alsowomen are very dominant in the frontline. You know the kind of healthand education and all that kind of thing. But yes, I do think that some of those employers are definitelythey're very sort of focused and they have very good so when they do theirgender pay reports, they have kind of an action plan andthey do folk on that and they realize and they've sort of looked in detail.The reasons why there's a gender pig that which isoften because there's not many women in their higher ranks of organization andsometimes the action that they take to counter that actually worse, inseageinto Pakap, because if they're in industries, where there's few women andthey get a lot of women in through into TAT, they've gone out and They'e done,ot of out reach and stuff and bought in women on the lower in the lower ranksthe graduates or Choo area they take a while. So then what Goy up tothe top? But that's the beginning, because they've got more than in the inthe lower ranks it affects hergend. And if, even if one woman, if theyve gotyou know, hardly any women at the top. If one woman leaves that really sort ofexcuse the figures, but in general I mean the the gender pay, you know thething was suspended. Tha The government suspended the gender papbet reportingthis year,...

...and you know we feel that's areally.That's also a really negative message to people and let's see what happensnext year, and it will be really important to watch what the figures arebecause, as you say, I've been talking a lot about goodpractice in the best practice here, and we know that there's you know, there'sthere's a huge issue with women dropping out of the work, and I knowthis has been reported around Thot. You know the US and stuff as well with bigmckinzi report came out in September. I think mckinzi and leaning, and theywere talking about this massive sort drop out of women from the workforce and that whole lack of recognition within the sort of the sort of structures, the paystructures and the and the promotion structures of what women have had todeal with in the last few months, and it generally has been women. So, for example, you know when figurescome out and product Hemes, I think tit- was a port out the other day onproductivity ind its show. You know women were less productive. Well, whatwhy you know if you're looking at you know,women, maybe not, maybe won't put themselves Forwar for promotion ifthey've, absolutely exhausted after having Dod Hus keep going over the lastfew months. Do you do your? You know the processes tha you have forfor the deciding bonuses and and all that kind of thing, do they take intoaccount what has been happening in the last few months? You know it's notenough to you know just provide support. You've got to actually look at thestructures that you have so in to know what the impact is going to beon pay in going and and on career praggression for women, yeah,absolutely yeah. That's such an important point, actuallyto think aboutdo Youd. You see it changing. Do because wee. You know, we've beentalking a lot. What is base about the future of work and what what thefutureis going to look like now, if covid has reset things and Al, you know,given businesses and opportunities, you rethink what they do where, where weecoing to go from head. Do you see that that approach to Atobilin and tomothers? Do you see that changing? Do you see the you know things gettingbetter anytime soon? Are you you optimistic about the future? I don't Evr Yeah, I'm not a sort of like it's going to begreat, like this is a great opportunity kind of person. I know that there's alot of that kind of going on, and sometimes that kind of very positivespin. It's like well because we getin in a lot of questions from people whoave being made redundant- and we know from you know previousresections and stuff. You know that it's very difficult to get back into work the longer thatyou're out of work that they you know there was a big spike in selfemploymentafter the last tecession that a lot of the people who are in selfemploymentare not really able to make a proper living way to they and they've beenreally hit selfemployed by COVID. So there's there's, there's optimisticthings and there's cessimistic things. So, on the optimistic front on the flex the working side of things,I do think that this hybrid working, particularly and and remote working generally or goingto be more of a thing in the future. I'm I my I'm sort of really interestingfelexible work in really, and I think that in the last few months it's justbeen seen as remote working and it's quite interesting that the Osfigure show that parttime working has been particularly hit by Covid so andyeah. There's quite a lot of campaigning, for you know four day weekand...

...short term working and that kind ofthing so that the pain is spread a little bit more. So, let's see what happens, I'm notsure. What's going to happen with that, but definitely I think a lot ofemployers will go forward with hybrid work. Ind Theyve seen that they canmake it work. They can save money which will be a big for issue. I'm veryinterested in this whole Ou Ow, the Doicher Bank report that came ou about acting remote workers and interested tosee whether that there's going to be more on that and paying people workremotely less. And if those people who work premotely tend to be women andthere's more there's still this kind of Cudos put on people who work in theoffice, you know there's a kind of hierarchy, then tack quite but bit, hopefully, hopefully e Dad's, wo thin, stickin there and so normalize it more and then on heon the Ne on the more negative side. I guess I shouldn't really end on thenegative saudaythe whole. The whole lador market has flipped. So,as we were coming up to Covid, there was a huge and ther still is: There's alot of skill shortages, an a lot of areas and we've got brexit so and that will have an impact on job losses, but also skillsshortages, an different areas, so there' There's a big retrainingagenda in there. But yes, as I said before, covid the the employeers needed to get out toa more diver. You know they needed to get more people in they needed to widenthe talent pool and now they've got the opposite, where they're going to have alot of people looking for jobs, and so we need to keep an eye on that and make sure that they still diverstin inclusion is still really an all forms of diverse conclusion, which areoften interrelated are kicked on the agenda. Definitely I pase that thething is, it is what's happening at the moment, doespresent an opportunity, but it's very much about hew businesses respond tothat ow they how they choose to take Tham, which directionly cused to go in so say to end on a positivenote. What would you? What would you like to see in the future? How howd youthink businesses coulch Responsii a positive way to make things better andcreative ate future for parents and women and everybody in general yeah Imean, I think, I'm hoping that more business I wall. Certainly you know the ones thatwe are speaking to are moll in touch with what their employees want, thatthis has been a big exercise on the mental health side. Ta that there's a there's, much morerecognition of well being issues and and of line managers have had to bemore in touch with everybody. So a lot of emjloyers have you know the linemanagers has been sort of regular contact, fira, zoom and stuff, likethat they'e seen inside people's homes, they've see the you know they see whatwhat's going on for people all the other issues and things, maybe thatpeople in within teams know each other a little bit more and there's more of arecognition of all those things and that there's great a greater senseof engagement there and that that will feed through intosort of more recognition of why it makes business sense to you knowto understand your employees more and and what motivates them, because in the long term, this is allgoing to be. You know knowing that and what works best getting the best talent.You know the boadest boadest e in the vodis sense, having diverse teams thatreflect your customers or clients or whatever it is it's going to be good for business aswell as for employees, absolutely an...

...fedit fast or my fel tat, a wear,absolutely brilliant. Note, an God Mandy. Thank you so much, but talkingto me today. I really appreciate that that was incredibly interesting andthere's some really useful things for everybody. cipt go away and think aboutand wher can they find more information wore Erealy. They go tofind more aboutworking, momns and all of the resources and amazing stuff that you produce rigt.Well, it's working, mom, Stok, codot, UK and then for the GAD's working gadsDork cor at UK and for the overs working wise dot go ot, you GA eyen. Icannot encourage everyone enough to go and check atbout this Teres, someincredible Lik for your doing and brilliant things that you're producing.So everybody should go and look at that and thank you migtde it for brilliant.Talking to you. Thank you, everybody for listening a. We will see you againon the net esode ever imagination.

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