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Episode 4: White Men Can't Lead | Reimagination At Work

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There’s an unspeakable truth to face, the thing everyone is too scared to say out loud… that this conversation about race is one that can’t be led, dominated and owned by white men. Sorry guys, this is not your latest pet project.


Rachel, Mo and Allegra talk about why white men can't lead, a great clickbaity headline for sure. But what do we really mean?

Tinat O podcast. This is the podcastbrought to you by watch this space, where we seek to challenge assumptionsabout work and think o very better way altogether of doing everything. I'm anAbretapement, I'm your haste for this episode and I enjoyed by my fellow okaycreators, my m Rachel Brater Pisson, how a devil you do! Oh, my God, I'mfine, I'm great! As usual. I think the daythat I say that I'm like I've had a terrible day or no I've had like theworst day ever, but generally a funny disposition that is to not oe thingsthat GE really bad in the world. When Rachel is petinistic about life likethat's, when you know things at Yeah Yeah I mean I've got there over thelast couple of months, Har's been some dark times for sure, but you know aslong as Tings I've goot you girls with me how you my house, life, I'm good, I'mkind of similar. Actually, I'm usually in a good mood. It takes quite a lot tobring me down. o things are good. Today I've got some chocolate sunshiningthere. Al Things are good yeah. I am here to bring the pessimisms house myroll grim referalegracyticalanyeahhe, myname MES happy in a IA. It does yeah. So I like to tynd be awkward. This weeks, episode, controversially,is called white men can't leave now. If you see the film white mancan't jump or you are a child, the ATS that will be really funny F. If youhaven't and you're one of those young people that we keep hearing about, thendon't panic, because we are not saying well, I'm not saying I don't know whatthese guys are about to say, we're not saying that whitemen are incapable offeeding I're, not saying that they shouldn't be doing it. What we aretalking about is everything that's been happening over the last few weeksmonths. Ive got O thack of time, so I din't know what's been going on, but asbeen happening recently with the Black Lights Master Movement, and there isnow a global push for greater diversity. YoGo to Equasy, better treatment of people of Color, and we've noticed abit of a worrying trend or teams. Businesses, organizations that are veryheavily dominated bhy people who are not from minority groups who are indominant positions, who we used to being in chargebo everything takingthis as their opportunity to step into the spotlight and talking about howwell their business has been doing on diversity or leading diverstiy groupsand Wer a little bit worried about this are't. We mowe we really are and andit's a difficult subject to address, because everyone has a part o playingthis and it's about everyone. We all need to pall together to change theworld, but there is a particular time for different people to be in thespotlight, and I think this is one of those times where. Actually there areother people that could be leading this and that have the vision and the hopeand the people who are in the nondominant groups, who have alwaysbeen living with. This, have much more insight into the situation. A much foreinsight about what things need to be changed and it's a really goodopportunity for organizations to look to those people to help them with this,and I know there are businesses that may not have people of Color in theirbusiness already, but that's okay, just say that and then there are people thatcan help. So I think it's just one of those times where what we really needis for everyone to act, alyuse Tas, a problem except there's a problem andkind of engage in the discussion, rather than seeing it as the latestmarketing trend, or the latest thing that's going on to make you look coolor your latest pet project to in Harceyour career. This is somethingdifferent, and it's that time to think about that yeahthank you for asking isvery, very kind of you. What do I think?...

Well, I think that any group shouldn'tlead an isolation, so it I wen't white men shouldn't lead in isolation becauseit just it doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons for businesses yeah, I've kind of been thinking aboutthat a lot, and obviously it's not it's. Not a new subject and something that'sI guess frostrating I like to go on the more negative sirt of things. Somethingthat's frustrating is this: This isn't reallyanything new like it's had a resurgence brilliant, like you know, in terms ofmore eyes on the subject matter, Mor people being bought into theconversation through the wonders of the technology that you know that we hasadvanced in the last few years. We can communicate with each other worldwideon a massive scale. Now, so maybe that's given this subject more, I guess more air time and more reach toyou, this eahmaxing Lon I's. What worries me is this going to thisenthusiasm, this new enthusiasm t do something about it. Is it going to dieaway and really hope, thitis not going to happen, and this is a real time ofchange, see. Similarly to you, I think I'm really hopeful that this is thethought of change, but what I'm worried about and with that kind of you know,thinking white man called I'm doing. Quiation Monts, you can't see me, doprotation once be Thas. My White Man, Cat Leis in a better college idea is, I worry that what's happeningat the moment is, is more of a panic reaction, but that's wha yeah, that'swhat I was going. Ta Say: Panic Me Joke We. Actually everyoneelse is doing something. So we've got Ta Jump On the bandwagon and say thingsabout this, but we don't know what things to say. So you know and thenthere's like you know, I don't is that don't not having businesses treat thisas like the latest kind of marketing trend or communications kind of trend,and actually what we really want to see is real, lasting change, and thatrequires people to dig in and stick with it and you know, be, you know relentless in their pursuit of keepingthis. You know in the as a topic of discussion and, as youknow, all of the things that people can do in their businesses to change them.So that was my point. Yeah boutacknowedging. The problem were nottrying to pretend there isn't one. I think that's yeah and that's a bigconten that I have an, I think, an issue with leadership. In general is,we are all every single one of us totally include myself in this. We areall very bad at missing that we don't know something or that we're not goodat something or that you know things are not a hundred percent where we wantthem to be, and so this has come up as an issue that people are going. Look.Where are we with diversity in business in or organizations in services,whatever, and rather than sanding up and going yeah, my company's really bad?At IEN, we've got a board of six white guys and we've got one person of colorand that's it. People are going into that panic mode like or I mustn't. Imustn't admit that we're not right. Yeah must fying something to kind ofhove that and make us look goodand. Actually you know the best thing thatpeople could do right now is is just say: We know, we've got aninsue and we acknowledge that and we want to work towards changing it, but that kind of panic, instinctive. I mustmake myself goot good kicks in and that's when people feel tlike have tosay something and they have to say something: Ta'seen, Makeen e look good.So the thing they end up saying is: Oh Yeah. We are really Li. tets honestylike look at this one brown yeah I've got looking for it and ee Kall. You endup with diversity groups that are completelyrun by people who are already indominant positions, and you know youdon't have Ayea lerst people on TMAP PA and that's never going to be aproductive diversity group. If you...

...don't have people who, like you said Mo,have that insight exacty what it is to be Aonom and there's no quick fix tothis. This is a long game. It's going to take a long time toresolve. You know. People of color are not in positions of power throughoutour society. everythings based on like being the defail and people arestruggling with that theye re strugging. To accept that I've had lots of reallychallenging conversations to people. This isn't a new thing. We've alwaysknown this, but suddenly people are actually listening to it and they'restruggling to listen to it. Some people are really getting on board and sayingWelh, I'm going to educate myself. There are a lot of people still indenial still in that fear zone and that's the problem that we've got andsome of the nee jet reactions that we've seen, I'm afraid. That's what Ithink about some of the statues. I think the thing Bristol, with symbolicthey've, been trying to get that statue an rod for a long time, itwas verydifferent to all counsels everywhere, suddenly saying they're going to dothat, I think to do that. You've got to have conversations with people, so theyunderstand what that suchly represents like what that person did. Yeah Tho sones before, because otherwise you're just playing into their fears of you,know, you're, taking away my things that are important to me, even thoughthey probably walk past that statue a Billion Times, and I don't knoweahoneofthts up to defend Te. George Georgiafromaomel Sto round Georgoprotecting Aros like cool Ayo. I think that's one of the things though, likeit's not so much I mean. Obviously there is a hell of a lot of verypurposefur hate from people from groups of people to other groups of people, but I think a lot of what we're seeing in terms of thoseneed. Jerk reactions to what's going on and stuff is based in fair and fear, isfundamentally based of You'r afraid of things. Youdon't fully understand and that's where and the understanding of why we'retaking the satues down. Why we, you know talk about people like church Al in ayou know, in a different way from other people. You know all of those thingsare based in a lot of misunderstanding or just no understanding, and then thatcomes back to the fact that you know at least in the UK and I'm sure, in a lotof paces around the world education around the things that you know the country has done in in history. Soeducation is really probably one of the most important things that we need tosee changed in terms of that, because that's where you know all of thosethings ave kind of learned or not learned as s maybe canmybe quite a welleducated person. I've got two degrees. I you know went to wo school, that PouTawas fanncy honestly hated my school that I can pasbe tell you fu. Itthought it was quite Hamty and we did you know we did have quitewhat I would I would have thought by this country. Sandis is quite afhirespition and I genuinely didn't believe that Britin was avolte in thesave trade. I didn't know that I thought I was pretty sure it wasn't upuntil like probably a few years ago, and that was a real o relation to me,because we we never talked that TAT scool e Yeah Yeah Son. That wassomething that happened in America. That was what the bad people over thereDi Yeah. Of that I knew about all of thathistory. I knew about the horrors of the colonies, because you know mygrandparents wor tell me about it and all those things and at school I waslabelled a bit argumentto in the trouble maker for pointing some ofthose things out, because actually the teachers didn't want to hear that yeah.They were quite happy in H, ignorance of it and you know its annoying girlsoy. Well, actually, the Enginei Ma ways work, tat great you know was justannoying to them, yeah, so there's the real gap er and the problem. Now thatwe've got is we can educate kids now, but we've got generations that hasn'thad thi a real gap in education now so people that are adults now. How do weeducate all of those people so that we...

...have a kind of collective understandingof Os thing and ere's another difficult conversation? I've had with lots ofpeople. It's not that I feel anyone jho needs to feel guilt for the Britishslave trade or colonialism. You didn't know. I that's ridiculous. It's notabout free colnective guilt, it's about understanding it and understanding. Howwe got here, you know, is no Tas Longtem impications of that yeah impactat that has had and the disavavantage position that has put people F, ColorofYeah, you know, go and pull it up until the present Dayn. Until you are awareof those systems that ere at work, you can't possibly understand thedlandscapeis actually and Lik. You can't understand people, you know who don't understandwhy black people are here, maybe need to understand you. The Wind RushGeneration and written kneeding people, leeding workers and actually callingout to those countries say come to your cloniol home andthnumber Oyou knowphysically against ther will gone. You know h. The British yeah I mean, wentand picks up or went you. We need you to come yeah for es in the war or weneed you to do ar for St. you know you're coming with that kind of thingand have been here ever since, because theyr you kno great grandparents, wereforced on Toa Boat, Yeah Andi, those conversations that people need to haveand understand that when we say when we say white privilege, we don't meanyou're rich and you grew up in a mantion. It's just that on that onething on your skin color: it's never cause your disadvantage and that's theconversation we you have so again have some quit angry conversations on I'mnot privileged. I'm not rich. No, we're not saying that. It's like understandwhat we're talking about here and until we can have those discussions sensibly,we kind of don't move forward. Yeah. I think there's a distinct, and I thinkthat the simper one of the symptoms of all of that stuff, the lack ofeducation, the lack of understanding and why people are getting angry andfearful about all of this stuff happening is because, because of thoselack that lack of that education and understanding, there's no compassionthere, there's no compassion for other other people, because we don't rea,know whyte people don't under properly understands the you know that historyand what you know other people from other backgrounds countries. You knowcultures have been through because of Webecause of white privilege. Sothere's no compassion and compassion. I mean I'll bang on about it. Until theday I die, ith, compassion and kindness are literally two of the things thatwill change the world, but we have to give people the knowledge. You know you have tohave knowledge and understanding in order to have compassion, I think andsirking back then that brings us kind of natly wherean's. What we started isthat I think a lot of white men feel nowthat they're under attack and that they're being told that they're no longer required or their rubbish orthere you know INAT te equal just because they happen to people. Theydon't deserve to be where they do. There's a lot of them that don't but ten. So another reason that thetiht of this aby is called Whiteman can't lead is because I think genwe nea lot of them feel lhike. People are saying that that they shouldn't bewe're not saying that we put that in the title slightly to get you toeasattentionbut. You know no one. No one is saying that what we're saying, whichkind of you know again: Maye Satway, a o Sike is this, isn't a conversation that theyshould be taking the sun to stage or clearly white Mak can dead because theyaal doing it in abundant numbers. But you know no one is trying to take thataway from you guys honestly you're fine, but they feel like that. They feel likethey're indathreat, they feeel at they're being attacked, and what weneed to do, I think, is poing a way to be able to talk about some of thesethings in an hone. You want way, I'm not for people not to say it as anattack not to see it as people saying you know, you can't be involved, it'snot we're not trying to take we're, not ripping Oll the tatues down we're nottaking tracking all the wotmen out of...

...their jobs. There was room foreverybody thi space for ever yeah. We just need to be able to have thoseconversations and what you sai about. Chito was really interesting. Because,again, you know we started this by talking about people are panicking andthinking of God, I can't admit I've got a problem because then everyone was Nin.conterrible you're not allowed to talk about the shade of Gray in anybody'slife they go. I wor villain it's yeah in Charchas, a great examples like buthe's you know he was a great hero, so we can't pusibe hat bad qualities. It'slike I aesy humigaing hut, wassome things about him that were prettyterrible, yeahsomething boit that were really Eng Yeah. That's what you beinTi yeah, so read about the FRANL Femin as well. As you know his work on Europeafter the war and then you get a picture of who people, but I guess it'sthe media like to villainize or hear o worship. People, like you, said,there's no kind of great area, because gray areas aren't interesting stories,but they are very important in order to cultivate compassion and understandingfor other people who look different from you. So, as you will know in the way that thispodcast runs, if you're a regular listener and if not, why not? Wbut welike to fograt solutions to the problems and then get you vise to pick,which is the best solution. So let's have a little talk about how weconsolting, so just in Anot, show foreno on who's wondering what the kindof core of the issue is. I did a little digging into this and on the Ay blackwives matter, hushtag. I found that one thousand two hundredyeases of that Hashtag every single day, R in the UK by people who work ing,moking, ND communications. So that's there's a round about twelve hundredbrowns tweets going out on a daily basis using black lives matter. Now,that's a hashsack that it's Basialy, spporsive grass, sreets movement.That's a face to be information, sharing tools, resources, things thatUrg need to Ge out to people who are campaiging on the ground. If you'reflutzing that Hashtag with stuff about your business, trying to make yourselfit good, you are not only not making yourself iit very good, but you'reliterally frolencing people, Color Welthe, try, Yor, silencing them walkshouting desperately we're not racist, not racistt AIS. We are Whi. We likemaking impossible for people to find information about Audsis, so don't do.That is a whole actually jus. Basically, Idid for everybody not to panic and see you rain it in a little bit and to listen to other people so rather thanfeeling that you have to send yourself in the conversation it's to take aminute and stop and listen to the nondominant groups and the people whoare facing a vesity and can give them an optunity to speak about theirexperience and what they can do better so Mo. How are you going to solve allthat and fix it and make it well? So I think, as you said, this has to bebroken, downt trunks that people can think about and ask questions about,and tryand o dress and there's lots of work to do around this. So thees, some simple things: people an doand in looking at their diversity, stets ind their organization and justunderstaing the problem. That's a really straight forth thing to do, andwe know that people generally recruit people who allremind them of themselves. It's an unconscious vice that everyone has athere's, nothing wrong with admitting that everyone has it. I have it. Youknow everyone does that's just what you do and so the way that manifest itselfis, you end up very similar kinds of people, progressing their careers andrunning organizations. That's just what's happened, so the key action isto understand for res Stytistics in your organization and then think aboutwhat you're going to do about it so to recruit a more diverse range of people.How are you going to do that? Who are the people that can help with that?What's the interview process like there are different ways you can do interviewprocesses, there's some groat stats around about who does the hiring. Imyself know that I've faced all mal panels and teens pretty much my wholecareer. How can you change that ut? How...

...can you have different people involved?How can Yeu have different ways of hiring, so it isn't always aboutsubmitting a CV going to an interview and ive kind of things. So there areways you can areeve on Controu pise Wyre taking names off TVs. I wentinterview for a whole where there wasn't a CV at all. You would give itsome statements and you had to write paragraphs arout it they were given topeople to assess people on how they address the problem. You can involve different people in theorganization in the interview process. It doesn't have to be all director,because actually often people are going to work with teams Sa d. Why notinvolve different people in different teams so that you recruit a broad rangeof people and then having gone through arecruitment process where you might get some diverse people, then I think itrequires some real compassionan understanding about what that's likeand how it is for that person. So when they walk into a room and everyone inthe rol pretty much everyone in the room is white. How is that going to befor that person? How are you going to support them? How you going to look athow they can devop their career, because another interesting bit of workfor companies to do is to look at whether they recruited people of Colorever in the company and how on theyv stage- and I think that start would bevery revealing for people, because quite often you don't stay very long. Iknow myself, there are places I've been like this just isn't going to work outand left because you just know so I think those are that's the other thingthat needs to be addressed and there's ways you can address that so thir'skind of mentoryn scheme support scheme people knowing who they can talk to ifthey're having problems, discussions around behaviors kind of unconscious,WI training. What happens if there's a problem, you know what actually, howdoes that get addressed? How do people get listened to all of those kinds ofthings I questioned? I don't have solutionshere, I'm asking loads of questions, because that's what organizations needto do? They need to ask all of these difficult questions and figure out howon earth they're going to get through this and have a more diverse workforce,and you know, go to our website. You'll see all kinds of sats about thebenefits of diversity and it makes sense. You know if you're designing aproduct that you want to sell to everybody in the world. If you don'tinvolve everybody in the world or representatives, everybody in the world,in your design decision making prices, how a NI, foryou cantin the producttit's like a really good example of that is makeup and underwear yeah. The wordingaround, like you know, Canseeli colors like calling something nude yeah likeby defa its like okay. Well, what kind of node do you mean yeah, because wethink you mean white node and like nude, skin color as well: INSKINS, colored, underwear and and Ha Kinit Ven Eli'mItalian, I'm no I' little bit of a sort of funny yeaois. That is the word that we get weget called, but even me, like normal White Typt,tin'k, see me they look ridiculous yeah like yeah the signing of like productslike that and then the naming of them, like my white privilege, means thatI've never ever had to think about, like I've, never had to feel what it feelslike to look at something a product that I need and want to buy and have itcalled something like nude and it only come in a bunch of white colors andlike feel what that must feel like like yeah. That's that's what ll likeprivilegeis like ever really having to think about you know, like you know, all of thethings around safety and opportunities and unconscious Bius, but also just theday today, walking into boots to buy something yeah and being like Al Right:Okay, Im excuded from Biz yeah that', the ISM. That's the essence of whatpovilage right there is yeah is wanting to play something I just Wi pite shop,an buying it yeahexactly yeahothe wholeus, going back to e recruitment,hi, there's so really different things...

...to consider. It's Jor! BED works. It'syou know what people say about your company. What do people say on thingslike glast or and twitter? It's everything, and you know if youhave got I've, seen a lot of companies. Again. I've been that person actuallyfor lots of companies. Can we have you in the photos? Can we put you on thewebsite? You know Allit's real topenis and it's like yeah. She Cani just do myjob and do that really well and Yo have to be like this person that yeah yea,because then that must you know for some people who are maybe lessconfident in themselves. An emo must think like that. Tachanism is happeningto them. Like am I actually here because I'm good at my job exactly likeand then they doubt the meselfs much more uncomfortable in your job as yeah.Oh can we have. You is the token ban person, please Oh yeahfor, pointing outthat I yoow you've had no color her like that roasis okayyeah. The otherthing recritment that really winds me up is I've had so many conversationswith businesses where they just said: Oh Yeah. Well, we just we just can'tlake so we're based in Britn and the the number of pisnesses that I'vespoken to Brycan Ho. Come e e, just dont ant any people of color here, sowe just can't recruit any I'm like mee it's outside Mak seriously, like I meaniweve been on lockdown for a while yeah, the no excuse really, if you've youknow, walked around Brightin or but I ha e Sane e tings people going like. Ohit's just such a white city whet just arent any people of color, it's like no,they just don't applay for youal jobs because they feel really uncomfortablein Brighton. So many I know, can me up to Anser Yeah Hois Oo, do KETC OPP inNonson and not feel like you're the token yeah in the ring. So so I meanagree. Could Women of kind of Brightan we were in all kinds of differentsectors and actually quite a lot travel to London and I've got friends that canmet in London a I said, yeah. I don't now a fancy working Brighton, becauseit's not that diverse and companies an. I think. That's something that needs tobe looked at and address so the problem is you can't just sit there saying?Well, we advertised it and no no EPLIE. If you you know, you're serious bout isyou're going to make the effort and go out and find them. I never o lat andyou have to think about all of your own marketing, like what messages are yousending out to the world? Are you sending out like those that message ofinclusion and welcoming for everybody you know into Your Business? The other thing was ragruitment. I wasjust thinking about when you were saying. Is that I'm in a like seniormanagement rol? So I do I've done a lot of recraitment over the last couple ofyears and it is amazing. I just want to make this point. It is amazing theattitude difference that people come into the interview room with, dependingon whether they're male or female, that all of the women that I haveinterviewed have always come in quite Meke, like quite kind of yeah like more nerves, and you can feel it in theyou know in the sort of Warmar. After a while once they realize I'm not thatprofessional innetative in interviews and we have a chat that the men come inwith such provado one kid came in, and I call him a kid because he was likemaybe about twenty three and that's incredibly condescending, and I don'tcare because he came in he sat in the chair, Yeah. It is, and I'm not sorry for him he came in and he like flurted with methroughout the hole is e and I was like Ma: Do you think you're going to floatyour way into a job like I's kind of insulted like and you know like yeah it was th. Itwas just the attitude difference in terms of how people come into a job wedidn't have. We didn't have anybody from like any kind of minorities, comein or apply or apply for the role or anything, but actually what you saidabout yeah? How you make people feel whenthey walk into it: Isvew Room Hen, all the people interviewing or even justthe other. The one person interviewing is a white person like thinking about how I would approachthat situation is tuck up. This is...

...exactly like right. Now is the firsttime. I'm thinking that I would need to go. Do I need to think about how I would make thatperson feel if they were coming into the room with me and, like maybe oneother person on my team or me with Jason or Scott, who was to people whorun the agency yeah. So, okay, my ea CI, really quicy wrihtIntoi've got a lot of work, Todo and so do a lot of companies. That's the thingis no everyone's in the same Bot so 's it's important to not feel that youknow your in some way lacking everybody. Startingfrom this point. Everyone's everyone has got this wrong. Okay, so justexcite that its FIN Doin'G it wrong. That's all right! That's the key!Accepting that we haven't got it right. Instead of putting out these marketingmessages, going we're trying better yeah, we'll try to you know just justfess up so in summary, review, recruitmert processes. How Olook at how you do interviews, how Ho to get the messages you're, putting outthere and happen Lik at where you're trying to recruit peopeform and maybebreach out to some lightly different people for your interiy prices to getmore divisaed can itwill make interviewing a lot more fun, so boring Wim. Just gonna tell you about mychildhood Rac. How are you gonso these proens foreverybody, so I'm going to selve all of the problems? LLAN, that's! Basically, I am gunningfor my job title to change to something like solutions, manager or solutiondirector of solution anyway. So what I'm going to do is what I would like to see happen andchange is how decisions are made and inbusinesses and in organizations an all kind of groups, and things like that isproblems kind of come. I think from when decisions are made top down andthere's little to know, collaboration on decision making for businesses likewe're quite lucky, a o visibility in that we're a small company, and I knowthat when you've got a smaller company, it is easier to have more discussionsand have more collaboration. If you really O treally want that and that'swhat we do have, and we also have a very kind of open,you know decision making culture like we have discussions about. You know what kind of clients we wantto work with, and you know where we want to take our own marketing and w.You know collaborative on that kind of thing. But what we don't have is agreat amount of diversity. So we are, I would say, eighten twenty in favor ofmen in the agency, and we don't haveanybody from any kind of divfer. We don't have any people ofColor in our in our agency throughout, like not just seniorleaders, but you know in the in the team as well, and I don't know why that is. But thatmeans that we're missing out on the lived experiences and perspectives ofwhole groups of people that we are trying to do marking for for ourclients, who is you know possibly one of their audiences, so we're missingout on that for our clients, but also for ourselves as well. You know as abusiness like the direction that we take ourselves in, so I think businesses need to ask themselves. Dothey have any kind of what's their current situation in terms of making?How do they make decisions? WHO MAKES THE DECISIONS? Is that all by men is itall by white? Men is t all by white women? Is it all one group of peoplejust making all of these decisions, and if it is, then that needs to change?That's just a justist offoas. It needs to change, but also in terms of...

...decisions like collaborative decisions, opening up and the opening up decision,making. Conversations with the rest of your, I was going to say, agency, noteveryone works in an agency rage come on yeah, so opening up those conversations,and also just like, take a step back when those conversations are happeningwhen decisions are being made and just see who is dominating those decisionslike? Is there one person who is more willing and ready to speak up aboutwhere they think what direction they think the company should go in and just like, encourage other peoplewho are because I know that people can kind of go right. That person is veryconfident and want. You know, is very happy to put forward their ideas abutwhat we should do in this situation. So I'm just going to sit back and let themdo it. People need to recognize that their voice is really really important, so yea how decisions are made, whothey're made by collaborative decision making yeah. That would be one of the thingsthat I would sort of like to see change in a lot ofbusinesses. I think another thing another one of these farous poneses. Ifbusinesses are very afraid of collabrative decision making becausethey feel like if they have to ask loads of people, it's Acinan, maybebeing the thing they wanted to do, doesn't happen yeah and it's also goingto maybe slow things down. But I think it's really important to be were thatthe more people you involve in a decision an in a conversation yea haveto listen to them. You know you Brun the business, the end of hat. You couldoverull them if you think yeah better, but the more points of Yiou listen tothe ball. Likely is you're going to have a solution that actually worksbetter and is more o yeah. A hundred percent yeah bying you're GOINGTO haveyeahso it's actually really bef You'e, never gonna you're, never goin NA. Likeplease everybody as well, like, I said we're a small company and we get to we get to you know way in on prettymuch everything but and ageit it with bigger companies like bigger. You knowhuge, huge companies, the methods of doing that might bedifferent in instead of rocking up and having a conversation in person, youmight have to send out a survey and you might need some help with how you buildthat survey and make it accessible for everybody, and you know all of all ofthat kind of stuff. But yeah, like you, said Alegro, you don't have to go well.All of these people are saying something different, so we don't knowwhat to do and it's slowing things up or I have to listen to everyone andmake everybody happy you don't like you're the business owner you're inthat position for some reason or another, whether feel good or for illand you, you know you have the authority tomake the final decision, but you're opening yourself up to other points ofview, which means you become more compassionate yeah and moreunderstanding and you make better decisions. You actually make more moneyby doing that as well. There's yeah research that having your diversevoices in your discussions leads to more disagreement and I think that'sprobably what stops people one of the things that sort of people there ismore disagreement and debate because you're going to debate more options, soan outlier when you're deciding what color to paint the walls and someonesays. Oh that doesn't work for me because I'm you know I've got. I don'tknow something that makes me averse that color when you all decide. Ifthat's the color you're going to go for that, one person could be the personthat actually decides on the thing. Thatt's amazing. If you use the sameLANAGEU UL product design, you can come up with a great poduct with a group ofpeople who are all quite similar and then one person comes along and says:Oh, but what you haven't thought about is this and so there's a disagreementin a debate, but the decition you get to is actually faster and result. I thebetter product so there's reasons for doing it. It's just more uncomfortableand I's usuall or saving Fu. You O the original decision that you make.Actually you know six months down the line when you've started, building Yarprototype and started yeah Ian things...

...turned out not to work, because youdidn't have that person in the room. Yo said yeah about this. Yeah is much moreCossy. o Your Business, O kits fon more efficient and again is Sego. Is Nicetly backto, where we started, which is actually maybe taking your ego out of theequation, O being willing to set back and listen to other people and ask youknow other people, and I think that would be a really vary. Bool thing, thisis a nice way to finish it would bea really nice thing. You know better response to the whole black livesmasterting, rather than feeling that you, as a white man, who's in charge ofa business, has to be saying something. Yea much better response would be toactually set back and ask other people w te like you can listen to otherpeople's input. You know Goand, go and find some minority groups and have achance o them and see what they think a how they would like things to be. Thaineed be willing to listen and just you know, stet back a little bit and putspot like F ofit, your fineh yeah exactly doesn't diminish anyone'sposition by allowing other people to be part of the conversation. I think.That's probably, I think, that's hat the sort of what's the word and thekind of unconscious theories. Oh my God! If I let some other people into thisdiscussion, it takes it away from me and it doesn't at all, there's anoughroom for everyone. There's a lot of yeah time for everyone yeah. I don'tthink people should be afraid of conflict. Is My conflict, doesn't haveto be a negative thing as long as you're being respectful and givingsomeone space and time to have their say. If you disagree with them, likeyou were saying, my great things can come out of disagreements like more informed decisions can come out of conflict. I think we're just a littlebit afraid of being overly yeah like afraid ofconflict, nflict averse, but it doesn't have to be a bad thing and it doesn'tmake you look bad for disagreeing with something. It shows that you're,hopefully trying to understand another point of view bit more yeah, Yeah Ge.You Know Youre so being sort of seen as the person school who's brocking theboat. Because Y, U Yeah actually embracing hese voices a little bit morelistening to these people, who've got a different opinion, Ande, actually, yeah,that's yeah! That's another perspective. I Haden't thought of I'm going to takehot into account. We all grow as people we DIDT and- and you know yeah. I thinkthe taking the markting out of black lie matter that that whole stream is is good, because what people reallyshould be doing is looking at themselves and their businessesinternally. Through the Lens of this, you know movement and you the blends ofmovement, to more diverstening, inclusive businesses and not being nnot dominating the Air Ivs. Ifanything, just take a sit back, be introspective and amplify otherpeople's voices. You are talking about things that you agree with and andsharing those, but not like all those matter. Don't share that stuffthere's.A great point that you mad there about ampifying cause you've got the positionof the dominant position, use that yeah help other people yeah N. I don't wantto be all like I'm great or anything, but I at, but I think what part part of that wasrealizing that how little I did know and understand from my position as awhite person and with all of this stuff that wasgoing. You know which kicked off in America Wat m with the protests andwhat we're saeying around the world. Now I was like. I don't understand thisto really weigh in like I know racism is bad. I know like I know, I'm notRais Ealy I't itthebar minimum, but I'm notyou know. I know like you know. I hopefully think you know.Hopefully I'm an ally or whateverlanguage. You want to use ive,never really...

I've never really properly thoughtabout it, and I think that that is an output of my lack of education in itfrom a child and from educating myself and it's my responsibility. But I think that's what I did when all of it washappening was just go, I'm just going to go quiet and I'm going to read andDigest and take it in, and then I'm just going to retweet the hell out ofthese voices, and hopefully other people do that as well and browns. Dothat browns? Okay, so it ak to you guys now. What do youthink is the most important way that businesses can respond to aldof thisand put a greater emphasis on diversity? Is it by you, canmit, Thei, recrutmentand retention policies, and being more aware of how they're going aboutettracting pives apitants anm, making them on to Tay when they gettin thereor is it by thinking about thet decision making processes, I'm lookingout the business culture and how peoplecommunicate within it and work together wo will be putting a pull out on secialmedia. Let us know your thoughts like sabers are not going on this pole,ratal Dan, it you know what, if everyone has a like, Saber thet wouldbe a lot less fighting, which is ironic, that's yeah, I don't think of Hatt.Eventually, there'l be a lot less fighting because everyone would be dead anyway to to confude. I think m t the mostimportant thing that we would all like to see going forward from this ispeople being more willing to listen to other point of view, take more on boardand we just be willing to excit that there is an issue and that we all needto. We all need to work on Tha Hass B, every thingle one tof Usten Tan,there's always going to be room to grow and develop because if you're notbowing a about a Ping, an you might as well be dad fot thout about happy Elegra COMYIF. Youwant moe information about how you can do that. Then you can visit a website.Whic Jus, Watch this space tot UK. We are in fact running a workshop thisweek on how businesses comreponds to Bluk lies matter in a better way thatisn't flooding the Hashtag with Corporate Fran messages. So do you feelBrittetzd, but Petbe, free, so yeah, and you can also porow us on all of thesesion medias up to watch this SP CE and that on ov, the stace of wonderfulhappiness and batimism oon oo oeed. Sometimes we get a bit of rage Ding a sex week for the next episode,Ofer Imagination at work.

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