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Shyness Superpowers with Nadia Finer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

57% of the population are shy - so why are we designing the world to suit the extroverts? Nadia Finer, Founder of Shy & Mighty, is on a mission to help organisations recognise the power of shy people, and to support those people to get their voices heard. When our society sends out the message that there's something wrong with being shy - from school days, being forced to raise a hand, to the workplace, where not shouting over people in a meeting can mean not being heard at all - many shy people retreat, and we miss out on their perspectives and ideas. But why wouldn't you want to hear the contribution from the person who thinks more than they speak and has been carefully considering the issue before offering an opinion? 

E of the imagination of work podcastfrom what's this space. This is the podcast where we talk to interestingpeople and ideas to reimagine the world of work to include everyone. We have two sponsors for this episode.This episode, responsive by Plus Accounting, a firm of experience,charted a counter as based in Bison and hove. They offer a range ofcomprehensive tax and accounting services, so, whether you're juststarting out or thinking about selling your business, they can provide youwith the support and guidance that you need to keep control of your financesand plan your affairs for maximum efficiency. What makes them stand outfrom the crowd? Is there genuine interest in you and your business? Theytake time to understand, what's important to you and then tailor theirservices to your requirements. Whether this means how n you set up for ZeroAccounting System, improving the profitability of your business orrising on complex tax issues. They can help you with all of this, and oursecond sponsor is the business an IP center to the business, and I P centerand Briton, and how even the Jubilee Library and Brighton is transformingthe way ideas grow into successful businesses, they're, supporting athriving community of entrepreneurs, inventors and Simes Across Essex, sowhether you're just sitting out need advice and protecting your ownintellectual property or have a brilliant idea. You want to discussthey're here to guide you. They offer insights and access to Free Day ebasesmarket research, reports and expert advice to Fagus both of our sponsorsand today's subject is about a shyness and I'm delighted to have a wonderfulguest Nadia from shindigs in idea. How are you today and now I'm good? Thankyou. Thank you. So much for having me on the show the lies. Have you on theshow? So we've been talking since we met at an event an online event andit's a subject, but we're really interested in so there's lots to talkabout. Is I'm going to get started so, first of all, Nadia it'd be great. Ifyou could tell us a bit about yourself and show in mighty okay well, first ofall, I think the fact that we're having thisconversation is really important, because we don't talk about shyness. Iknow I never did. I've been shy, all my life, and I think I never reallyrealized that I was shy until maybe three or four years ago, when itsuddenly kind of dawned on me that I was not the same as everybody else Ifelt like there was maybe something wrong with me and I didn't understandwhy and I started to research shyness and Idiscovered that fifty seven percent of people are shy, and yet it's somethingwe never talk about. It's like this, a sort of shameful secret that we carryaround with us. That's unspoken and it's! I guess it's obvious, really thatwe wouldn't talk about shyness because wish I so I make a sense that we wouldit but constantly feeling like you're a bit broken or there's something wrongwith you and being made to feel that way by. Other people is not it's not conducive to a happy life orto success, and so I started to kind of explore shynessthan research it and understand what was going on and tell my story, and I really now realize that we're notbroken. You know how can fifty seven percent of the population be broken?That's a bit read and the more you think about it. The Stranger it is thatwe're made to feel that way. So I'm...

...really trying to kind of bring shynessout into the open start, a conversation about it, which is strange, starting aconversation about a thing that people don't want to talk about and finddifficult to talk anyway about everything. So that's how shy and mighty began reallyfor personal reasons, but also on a kind of softly spoken crusade to give it her people a voiceand what kind of work you doing? What kind of organizations do you talk to so I work with individuals. I went withcorporate and with schools as well, so shyness is something we are arguablyborn with for many people for others, it kind of starts in schools primaryschool. I'm sure we've all got kind of traumatic memories like Nativity plays and things likethat which, for many people can trigger their shyness. So it's important tokind of get in the young at a young age and start helping. People say that theydon't have these feelings and and hold on tothem and not talk about them from you know all that for all these years I getemails from people in their S, and they tell me that you know they've. This isthe first time they ever told anyone how they feel wow. That's like that'samazing, yeah, and since we met and started talking about the subject, itreally made me think about how everything we do is designed aroundextra. So, if we think back to school days, it's all about having to raiseyour hand and speak up, and it continues in everything we do and thelot of the things you see about changes that shy people need to make and yourstate about how many people are shy, actually sal. Why are we? Why are wearranging the world around other people who are not shy? It's a fascinatingsubject, and so, instead of asking you what changes we need to make the shy people make, I guess I'minterested to know what changes you think the world needs to me. It's suchan interesting Polini, 't it and you're. So right, it actually blows my mind Datto think about it. This way, you think, hang on a minute from the moment you goto school all the way through your life. Everything is designed for outgoingpeople. It's like the loudest person wins through primary school, like yousaid. Putting up your hand getting into groups presenting your work, the the the role that is kind of praise,the most say in a performance would be the lead part in a pepa, for example,not the person who wrote the play or the person who's designing the set. Youknow. Why is that, and it continues all the way through if you work it's inevery aspect of our lives politic. Oh my God like in Gosh, everything is notdesigned for quiet people. Everything is designed for the loudest person toeat the loudest group of people and to dominate so shifting. That is not going to be easy,but I do think it's important to start to make changes so that we're moreinclusive, because if you've got fifty seven percent of the population whopotentially struggled to speak up in meetings or share their ideas or they their work is not being kind ofgiven the recognition. It deserves...

...they're not putting themselves forwardfor promotions or you know, they're, not not only they not vocatam Ting, butmaybe they're, not in the meeting. You know yeah, maybe they're, not in theboardroom, so it is important because otherwise you're missing organizationsare missing. All that good stuff. So I think the first thing to do is talkabout shyness and that's why this is really important. You know we're havingthis conversation or go into. Schools are going to organizations and thatfirst step you know talking about it. It's amazing to me that people havenever spoken about this subject before, but I'm surprised, but also notsurprised, because I never spoke about it either. So you know so talking aboutfirst of all is is important and then I think you know making it acceptable instead of using language like stopbeing so shy, Oh you're! Not so shy, don't be so shy. Oh, don't be silly.You know, as if you can change your personality, just because someone'stelling you to, I think, that's really damaging and that begins in school andthen continues into the work place, and then there arethings that we can do actually say in the workplace that make itbetter for everybody that make it easier for people to contribute. So ifyou, if you are listening to this and you'rea shy person, you all know the things that are difficult so for me, being in a room of people and waiting.My turn to speak I had having to, but in I can find when it's my opportunity tospeak. As you can tell yeah, I can talk, but I find it hard to kind of, like almost have to speak Ovis, someone to be heard and a lot of meetings are badly ran, O yeah. They really arethat's one of our. We talked about it in Malot, actually in our work yeah, sopeople are not inviting others into the conversation and organizations are praising andoptimizing people who talk the loudest people who talk the most and there'snot enough. I think there's not enough emphasis placed on thinking so meetings are about talking, aren'tthey and when you're talking it's quite hard to think and talk at the same time,and so perhaps if organizations could actually lock out time for people tothink about stuff and then share it. You know not necessarily always verbalcommunication either for some reason, and I think, because the loudest peoplehave got the kind of the top jobs often and they like talking we're, not allowing people tocommunicate in different ways. It's almost like verbal communication is thetop method and it doesn't work for everybody so having things likemeetings where people are given time to think about something and then share indifferent ways, perhaps written or before a meeting or in a share document.Something like that, so that everyone gets to say you know, expecting peopleto contribute verbally in front of others. Puttingpeople on the spot that kind of thing only allows a certain type of person tospeak up yeah, and I go when you to...

...talk about that. It makes me think ofso many meetings. I've been in that are like that and a run like that, and it'ssomething we talk about a lot and think about in our own work as well, thatthere are a lot of people who need information beforehand to think about,and then, like you say, they don't necessarily want to speak out in themeeting with those ideas they want to they've got lots of ideas. They couldhave the most amazing idea of everyone there, but they need to be able to putthat information somewhere in a different way and there are somecompanies. Actually we interview somebody from Amazon and one of ourpodcast of the episodes ago, where they have like half an hour in the beginningof the meeting for everyone to read the information yeah, which I think not agood idea. Yes silent, they, I think they call them silent meetings whereyou're maid and then there's a limited amount of time to share, and I used tolook at an innovation company and we would help teach one of the things wedid was teach how organizations help have better ideas- and I remember in mycareer being in brain storms, that was a someone standing at the front of theroom holding a pen and then a room for of people, almost kind of shoutingideas out and I would definitely be set there. Thinking like I've got an ideahere, but have I got the guts to say it? No, I don't want them to laugh at mewhat if they did like it and then on occasion, finding the courage to speakup but not being allowed enough and almost just being drowned out. So we learned kind of ideation techniquesand one of the bit the most basic ones, is kind of getting into small huddles.So having ideas in groups of safe threepeople where one person's writing and is much easier to speak in front of acouple of other people and then sharing ideas back, I'm not always having to be the personthat shared, but maybe standing next to the people who shed and that way youget quality ideas. That've been thought through and notjust relying on the loudest people to kind of be able to yell over everybody.And what do you think about the fact that more meetings well prettymuch every meeting for the last couple of years really have been online? Howdo you think is helped, or has it made things worse, but I've explored thisactually, and I was surprised because I thought for me personally. It helps so I findonline meetings much easier to navigate. I like the fact, as a chap box, you canjot things down. You can raise your hand and it's just pressing a button.You don't actually have to kind of try and get people's attention, which Ifind it awkward there's a less shouting supposedly. Butwhat I would say is those meetings function. Well, when they'refacilitated by somebody who knows how to facilitate your meeting and make itinclusive, I think there's also for some, somepeople hate the camera being on, so you can turn it off, but so there's so thisgood point and for some people it works much better. They've told me that theyfind it easier and it's working well, they don't want to go back to normallife. I go, however, for others it's actually really hard, because perhapstheir meetings are not well facilitated, they find it easier to sit back intheir chair, hide turn off the Cameron, just not get involved at all. So Ithink it's kind of six of one and half a dozen of the other, but maybe goingforward. The one option is to give people the choiceso for those who find it easier to be...

...heard in person having the choice to go in and be faceto face, and then for those who prefer to work remotely like this being more flexible and being able todo it like that as well yeah, I yea such a good point about silicon because,like you, I think there are some good points where people can contributethrough the chat, but then, if that that is just ignored and they're notgetting to be heard in the meeting as well, and also I've been in some ofthose so meetings with the lots of people. But you have the same problemwhere one or two people dominate and then you don't get to hear fromeveryone else who could have the most amazing ideas and contritions yeah itcomes down. I think it comes down to people and their behavior and beingempathetic and considerate towards others. You know I've been in zoommeetings and that I think one of the things with zoom when it's notfacilitated, is it the way it picks up sound. So it kind of spot lights, almost theperson who is, literally speaking, the loudest notice. I I've been in meetings where someonequieter is trying to say something someone loud if speaks, and then theirfocus is electronica taken away from them unto the other person, because theother person is making a bigger noise yeah and it's it's similar. I've seenwith break out rooms. I've been to quite obviously quite a lot of onlineevents, because that's all we've been doing and some of them you get put intothese breakout rooms with maybe six people which see it seems like. Itcould be a good idea that you're in a smaller group to network, but then I'vebeen in quite a lot of them, where there's one person that doesn't havethe camera or doesn't feel they can contribute, doesn't doesn't want thatfocused attention and you don't have a choice in those events. You just getput into these rooms and that's made me think as well that we're not thinkingabout different kinds of people and what makes different kinds of peoplefeel included in something I think you're right. It's all about. Just understanding that not all value comes from a cookiecutter, yeah but human, so I think from a very young age at school, the quieter show people are overlooked,underestimated and ignored. You know we don't kick up a first, we're notnaughty and we're not making a lot of noise. So it's easy to kind of flyunder the radar, and I think research has shown that shy. Kids areunderestimated, you know their potential is underestimated and then inthe workplace I think show people are seen as sometimes disinterested, maybe aloof, not that bright, andactually that comes from this very one dimensional view of success andwhat a successful human or employee looks like and until we change the waywe view people and realize that being able to shout your ideas or being able to self promote doesn'tactually mean that the contribution you have to make is better than somebodywho's taken their time thought about it. Deeply Winny listened done. Theresearch you know put something detailed together. Why would you ignorethat content like that value? Why would you not give peoplee like that? Theopportunity to to speak...

...yeah- and it's really made me think of some of the kind of product designmeetings I used to be and when I worked in technology- and I remember there'sone person I worked with- who he would always listen to everything for aboutthe first twenty minutes and then would find a pause and then would say what hethought and his was always the most amazing idea and lucky because he washe'd been there a long time and people knew him well. There was always spacefor him to speak and it just showed the power- and I remember talking to himabout it once and he said Yeah it's because I listen and absorb and I don'tfeel confident to just speak at the beginning. So he almost used to let therabble happen for a while and then speak up, and it just shows that had henot been giving the space to speak and we wouldn't have his ideas exactly youknow if he hadn't been given the space. If people haven't realized that there'sa kind of treasure trove of knowledge and understanding right there in theroom and actually thought that that was important, then all that good stuffwould have just stayed hidden away and I think we need to change the way weview show people they're not just sitting there with an empty spacebetween their ears, they're sitting with absorbingprocessing thinking listening coming up with stuff with ideas with solutions-and surely I mean surely we need to hear what that is. You know to get the best results ratherthan assuming that anything worth hearing is going to somehow to find avoice or or just be shouted out. You know yeah, it doesn't make sense to meyeah, I'm lots more to talk to you about, but I'm going to cut to a shortbreak for the. What fresh Al is this report hello and welcome to this months? Whatfresh hell is this report? A recent study has warned that if youcan't fit into the jeans you wore at the age of twenty one, you are athigher risk of developing diabetes. This is great needs for any one who istwenty two years of age, but absolute nonsense for anyone else. The reportwent on to discuss how they put a lot of people with a healthy barmy on astarvation diet and that that reverse their diabetes. The report did notreveal how many of them immediately returned to their normal, healthyweight after the experiment is over and what other health issues thisdistinctly unhealthy lifestyle might have caused. Of course, Grove and all work to bedone to tackle violence against women. Pretty Batal is backing plans for a neweight at eight phone service that will allow women to share their location ifthey feel they're in danger, presumably in efforts to make it easier for theauthorities to find our bodies you'll. Forgive US Miss Pertell, ifwe're not eager in the wake of the murder of Sarah Everard, to have an apon our phones that will alert police officers that we are alone andvulnerable and give them our exact location. Conservative M P Jonathan Gullis hascalled for anyone using the term white privilege to be reported for extremistideology. The officers of watch this space are therefore expecting a raid.Any second Mister Gullis doesn't feel that any oneshould be able to say that white people might have advantages in society,thereby providing a perfect demonstration of the meaning of theterm white privilege. Mister Gullis also wants to see teachers whocriticize the Tories being sacked from their jobs. Luckily, I'm not a teacher,as I imagine I'm already on some kind of lest de to my use of the term whiteprivilege, and I've got a few things to say about a party that endorses suckingeducators for enabling critical thinking, Boris Johnson says that we'd, betterall get back to the office or we'll be gossiped about which probably says alot more about Mister Johnson's relationship with his colleagues thanthe benefits of Office Working Inn Duncan Smith, also waded into thee.Please go back to the offices that we...

...in our mates, won't rent for debate bytelling us that no one worked from home during the Second World War, despite the rather inferior quality ofhad the home broad band network in th n s, someone should probably tell in thatactually a lot of offices were relocated during the war and thatactually a lot of people did in fact work from home. He should definitely betold that not only were most air raids at night, but that you can't catchexplosions. Female students at Cambridge Universityare to be given fertility lessons, not the male students vapors already haveit covered. It's been prompted by fears that women in their s might beforgetting to have babies. Oh, Oh, I knew there was something I wasmeant to oh well can and finally, Lego haveannounced that they will be dropping boys and girls labels from their toysas they've discovered that you don't need specific genital configurations tooperate Toy Bricks. That's all for this monthback to you. My thank you for that. So nod a lot o man to talk to you about. I I'm really interested to just talkabout what people can do about this, so ideas and the things that you work onand what people can do so. First of all, can we talk about schoolsand some of the work you're doing with schools, because I'm really interestedto hear about that? Yes, of course, so I think, like I mentioned, thereally. The key thing here is that shy, kids are easily ignored and overlooked.You know in the classroom situation big classrooms, often when you're sure you you don't make a first, your sat therepotentially getting on with your work listening, but not really speaking andjoining in not really sharing and- and I think for that reason shyness is. It leads to kids kind of flying belowthe radar and not really fulfilling their full potential in the researchthat I've done. It's proven that shy people tend to underperform, underperform academically and thenprofessionally as well. So it starts really young and I think of forteachers and parents. If they're not show themselves and you think about it,how many shy teachers do you know? I mean it's not really the jobnecessarily for someone who doesn't like standing up in front of people andto me we could be missing out from these amazing teachers exactly wayeverything is designed. I mean I'd, go into schools, I love working with kids,but the thought of being a teacher scares me like. I don't think I couldcontrol a class. You know I'm not loud enough, so if you think about it likethat, you realize well, no wonder often teachers don't really notice orunderstand, because it's not necessarily something that they have experienced themselves. So I think, like I mentioned withadults, awareness is the first step there talking about shyness andunderstanding how it works a bit of education, I guess for teachers andparents. So that's why I go and do a lot of talksto try and explain how it works, why we feel shy what it feels like and what wecan do about it. The most important thing: If you takethat thing from this conversation or from any of the work I do, the onething to remember is you know shy. People are not broken. We don't need tochange or be fixed, we're not going to magically transform into an outgoingloud person, and I don't really think...

...we should have to do. I M sure you knowif we're holding ourselves back or were struggling in certain areas. There'sthings we can do, but I think, like a full personality transplant is not theanswer. I think parents and teachers can maybeowe to the language that they use. You know getting rid of writing reportswhere you tell kids to stop being so shy. It's not particularly helpful or saying. Oh, she needs to speak upmore will help her to do that. Not just tell her to do it, because if you can'tspeak up, it's a not something you're just going to be able to click yourfinger on to do that because it said it in a school report: Yeah Not really it's about creating opportunities inthe class that work for different people. So when your organizing projects havedifferent roles for different kinds of kids, not just you know the project leader, perhapspraising thinking a bit more so like Amazon, a doing with, like youmentioned the meetings, if that started early, where people were given time tothink about stuff and then sharing back in a way that works for everybody, notjust the most kind of confident loud person, who's happy standing in frontof the class recognizing trauma. I know that's soserious and scary, but the number of scaring experiences that I had inschool and I've had a few of them myself. That could easily have been avoided, shoving someone out onto a stage andKINDOF telling them to just get on with it will work for some people and maybethe moment that helps them break through, but for others. That could besomething that they need you as if therapy together. So we don't want to be doing that. I really embrace, through my work withkids in the mighty mob and the shy and mighty society. It's aboutunderstanding, shyness, embracing who you are understanding their re strengthto the way you are it's not just things you need to kind of fix. You will have super powers because ofyour shyness. You'll have extra strength because of it. You know ifcertain things are hard and the fact that you can do them. Eventually, thatmeans you're tough. You know that's impressive and gives you resilience inother areas of your life, but applying this kind of fitness model as a shy person, if you think aboutwhen you go to the gym, if you wanted to be able to do a pill up, I mean I'mterrible. I can't really do a pill up yet, but I'm working on it. So what Iwould do is have a goal: okay, a full pull up, then break it down intosmaller goals and then break it down into even smaller tiny, tiny girls. So something that seems big for somethingthat seems small for someone who is not so may seem huge for somebody who is Ito the idea of putting your hand up in class might seem massive, so break itdown. How are you going to build up to that? And if parents and teachers cansupport their kids in working towards these goals, not just academic goals,then that's when you start to see change. So that's when and in the workthat I do. You See, kids...

...speaking in class when they've beensort of selectively mute for a number of years, or you see young people goingfor job opportunities because they build up to things gradually and theyhave support around them. That's encouraging them and being an Allairather than trying to change them. I love that, but they have super powersthat fantastic, really love. That, and I do you work with teenagers as well asI work a mental for a charity for girls and we talk about shyness and that thegirl's networking might name them, yeah yeah. So do you work with teenagers aswell? Yes, I do. I did it talk on shyness for the girl, but I do so. I start with primary schoolkids and then I also work all the way through secondary schools. Actually,you know, as kids reach adolescence. There's almost another kind of peak ofshy feelings, because it's linked to self consciousness and awkwardness in the way that you feel about yourselfwhen people are looking at you, so that will understand what that feels. Like so yeah I work with teenagers as wellas adults and organizations, so it's all through the ages, really that itdoesn't necessarily because it's part of us it's not goingto necessarily go away, but the most important thing is to not feel likeyou're alone. You might feel that shyness makes youfeel different or that you are alone and other people don't understand. Butyou're not you know. Fifty seven percent you'd be amazed when, when youtalk about shyness, suddenly you'll be in a room full of people and the, ifyou ask them to raise their hands, I know show people wouldn't want to dothat. So don't do it, but just if you did just is an example, half the room would understand yeah. It's really. We need it's whenyou think about it. In those terms of how many people it is that you thinkdifferently about everything, really yeah a and then in terms of work, whatadvice do you have to pot question? What vice do you have somebody who isshy and struggling with their career to rest, to progress their career and foremployers? How can they help people so potentially more than half of theirworkhorse with progressing their careers? Okay, so I'll start with beingemployers first, so I think for an employer. Looking at your team, ifthere are people who are not contributing, don't always assume thatthey're not interested or they've, got nothing to say having some one to one conversations, we find it easier to connect with oneperson at a time, be understanding, be curious, try tofind out how someone's feeling and why and what you can do to help it's assimple. As that, you know, what do you need? How can I support you? Perhaps we could you could suggest meeting upafter a big meat thing or that someone emails their thoughts through or involving them in a project, but giving them aslightly different roles. So they've got something to do not just sit there, something that's going to enable themto participate without thinking too much about it. You know, there's lotsof things you can do, but really understanding is so important andrather than thinking, Oh Gosh, you know I've got to give this person extra help. It's not really extra help. It's justthat everything's been designed for a very small. You know...

...the other half you know, and actuallyyou don't just want the company filled with those people. You want a mixtureof people so you're, not really. You don't need to necessarily feel likeit's almost like remedial care. It's not it's! It's being inclusive andtrying to get the best help of people. So I work with organizations to raise awareness and understanding of shyness, but then alsowith it with people with individuals. You perhaps need a bit more support andif you're, not necessarily the best person yourself to provide that support,then you know bringing someone in who can help is an effective way. If youare a shy person yourself, don't try to necessarily change who youwere and think you need to pretend to be something or not, because it's notauthentic and it's painful yeah hiring. So we're not going to dothat. I had never realized that the way I am isa strength I mean that shift was huge for me. I always thought that therewere things kind of missing or that I needed to be louder, be bolder, be braver, bemore outspoken, be, or this be more there. Actually, when you start to look atyour strength- and you realize that, like we mentioned shy, people do havesuper powers round when you are on the quieter side. Like your old colleague, we have things we really accedat, mayberesearching things thinking things through coming up with ideas,empathizing building connections with people like have you ever actuallythought about the strength that you have because of your shyness. Well,maybe not say now s the time. The other thing is, I would say, try to connect with others who are likeyou yeah. We tend to be drawn to the loudest person in the room and it givesus a stick to kind of beat ourselves up with, because we can compare ourselvesto let the queen be and think. Well, I'm not like that. Oh my gosh. I needto be more like that. Why am I not like that? I'm not this! I'm not that I'mnot this and when you look around a room slightly differently and yourealize there are other quiet people there too, and there also not speakingto anyone or their hiding like behind various objects or other people. This power we have power in our shynessand when we get together, we that we have even more power and yetwe're kind of ignoring each other yeah. So I think that's another thing thatcan really help, and you know I would say not wishing to kind of blow my owntrumpet but reach out to me. I can help you, you know, there's lots of peoplelike us out there and there's things you can do to move your life forwards out of theshadows and to kind of connect with your your full potential. Your your! I guess, your shy potential yeahat the BRIANCE, like way into my next question to you, which is tell us wherepeople can find you a it links and social media links so head over to mywebsite, which is shy and my Tcom' me come find me an Instagram, I'm called Iam Shi and mighty, or on linked in I'm Nadia, fine and but essentially I justwant to help as many shy people as I can I, and whether that's helping showpeople directly or the organizations or...

...the schools that are probably filled with shypeople. Then I think you know there's there'swork to be done and the thing is this: stuff's life changing actually- and Ireally don't want to be getting messages in a few years time frompeople in their es who are, you know, have been holding on to this theirwhole life. I don't want people to be missing out on opportunities, theirwhole life and never speaking about the way they feelso. Hopefully, this works going to do something to change that before we getto that point. Yes, yeah. Definitely now do you. Thank you so much, it'slovely to chat you and, like so much for being a guest on the podcast, andthis has been the re imagination, O podcast, from watch this space thanksto our sponsers plus accounting, who you can find a plus accounting, Co kand the business and Ip Center who are at Briton, hyphen, hove, dot, Gov dot,UK would lash B IPC and to find watch the space. We are watching this spaceto UK and on social media. Where a watch this SP CE- and we will speak youall next time on another side.

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