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Hardeep Matharu, Byline Times Editor on Speaking Truth to Power

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Hardeep Matharu, editor of Byline Times speaks to Mo Kanjilal about her career journey, why the Byline Times was needed to speak truth to power in the face of the establishment media.

We learn Hardeeps thoughts on minorities in the media, online abuse, and the importance of providing a platform for wide-ranging voices to be heard so people can access and share the truth.

Find out more about the Byline Times here: https://bylinetimes.com/
Follow Hardeep Matharu on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Hardeep_Matharu

Find out more about Watch This Sp_ce and the Reimagination At Work podcast here: https://www.watchthisspace.uk/
Follow Mo on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/Mo_Kanjilal
Follow Watch This Sp_ce here: https://twitter.com/Watchthisspce

Don't forget to like and subscribe to support our messages of diversity and inclusion and never miss any of 'em! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeY0nmdJ1LsB_NWSJAdxaMw
 

Hi and welcome to the reimagination at work podcast from watch this space. This is the podcast where we ask you to challenge your assumptions and we talk about interesting subjects and often have different guests on the show with us, and today I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by hardy with Theuru, who is editor of the byline times. Hardy than I have been trying to meet since January, I think, as when we first started talking on twitter. There's an absolute pleasure to actually meet on Zoom and hopefully one day in person. So thank you so much, hardy, for joining us. Thank you for having me. Yeah, really great to finally talk to you. And so, to start with, can you just tell us about you your career and about byline times and where it started? Yes, so I got into journalism at the start, around two thousand and twelve. So I had graduated with the law degree and I had had this plan to join the legal profession and very much that was all sort of set out in my mind when I got to university. But then, having done a degree which which I really quite enjoyed, I just realized that sort of law was interesting because it was all about sort of you know, these these black and white sort of rules and regulations and pillars which ultimately governs human behavior, which is completely gray. And so what I realized is that I wanted to explore the gray and explore society in a much wider sense and ask questions and that sort of thing. So, having graduated, I ended up doing a joms and diploma at Junes and school, so I didn't NC TJ which was for six months, and learn how to write shorthand and all the basic reporting skills, which was great fun and really useful. And then I actually started as a trainee reporter on a local title. So it's called the extent Guardian, which was part of the south London Guardian series. Note that it's a paper which doesn't now exist in its own right and it was it's a newsquest, news quest title. And Yeah, I covered the air of EPSOM spent three years sort of talking to people from everything about sort of, you know, to know clinical commissioning groups and the future of the hospital, to pot holes to, you know, prisons, the prisons crisis, because the area's MP is Chris grayling. So it was it was a really great time to sort of really learn, learn your craft and learn the trade of journalism and I think local journalism and absolutely we're sort of in the investigatory element of what the press does should begin, you know,...

...and does begin, and certainly when I was there it was, you know, we go to council meetings, we being court cases. You know, you got to know the community that you are covering, and so there was that sense that, you know, there was local papers could have the resources at that time just about to still scrutinize what was going on and stand up for local people. I actually so I worked my way up and I begin an acting editor and then I left in about two thousand and fifteen because the company was making advances, as unfortunately is the case all over the country with local papers, and I decided it was time to move on anyway. So I went briefly to the independent where I was an online a news reporter, and that was the time, though, that the independent print edition was shutting down as all moving online. So it was it was sort of a very chaotic time, I would say, and I just didn't ask yeah, it just being an online reported driven by content wasn't quite what I was looking to do. So I wouldn't freelance. Did some criminal justice reporting for a few years, as always interested in prisons and notions rebilitation, having done my law degree. And eventually I was just writing a blog and someone put me in touch with Peter Jukes of bylinecom and I'd heard of bilnecom. I didn't know Peter and they suggested that I should start writing these blogs on byndcom, which was, it is, a crowdfunded journalist website. So I still still in existence, and the kind of point being that if people like your work, they pay for you to do it. So yeah, so I started doing that and then, yeah, that Peter and Steven Colgrave, who both both run bydcom, and about a year of getting to know them, I would say to them I you know, I love that I can still do my reporting and be freelance, but I really miss my newsroom. I miss that feeling of a newspapers. There's something about a newspaper that's so special and important. And and then they kind of said, well, why don't, why don't we set one up? You know we can, we we think we can do it. We've got some initial funding and we can do that. So last March we set up byline times, which is it which aims to cover what the papers don't say. So what we felt was there is definitely a gap in the market for news which is a bit old, you know, which is old school, which is about investigation, which is about analysis, which doesn't necessarily tell you what to think, but shows you what's happening, gives you the tools to inform you, as a sort of democratic citizen, about what's really happening. And so what we tend to we don't focus on a new cycle. Obviously, when big developments and events are happening, we kind of real recovered them, but always, you know, from a Lens, looking at it for a lens which perhaps you know, hasn't...

...been brought to light. So that's what we do. So stories that you can't find elsewhere in the media, and I would say so, for example, you know, media corruption. We do a lot about Islama, you know, highlighting is laman phobia. We did a lot about Russia and Russian interference, the rise of our rights, deve banner and all these sorts of areas. So there's that, and then also the subjects which are covered, but where we feel we have a new take on something or new voices. So that's yeah, so by times is a daily new site which is free for people to access, and if we do a monthly print edition, which is yeah. So when, when it first started, Steven said, Oh, we must do we must do a print edition, and yeah, and so it's really it's just really taken off actually. And so we do a thirst page newspaper and Yeah, we we kind of edit it and produce it in house. So yeah, and so it's it's been a fantastic journey, even since last March. I think what we have found is people are crying out for the type of thing that we're offering, which is, you know, what is actually happening, not just people's opinions of usual things, but what is actually happening. You know, what kind of links and connections are not being brought to the surface. Yeah, I think there's a real need for that and also journalism that really speaks to its readership. And what I mean by that is byline times is not sort of it's not part of what I call the establishment media. You know, it sits outside of the main street, but there is an establishment media and byling times it's saying, well, you know, it's not like me, Peter and Stephen are, you know, these sort of philosophical gurus who know what's best and kind of send that down to our readers. We're saying, you know what, we're on on a level here. We're just, you know, you know, we're where there's no kind of hierarchical nature of what we do between the you know, the Germans, the editors and the readers, and I think there is in the establishment media that that does happen, where you feel there's, you know, a group of people who are the people who can tell you what's happening and then every everyone else who kind of sits below that. We're much more kind of, you know, we just want to really talk to people about what's happening. Well, they care about yeah, definitely. When I'm a huge fan of byline times and it always feels like that, always feels like it's people that I would know and speaks who have done the investigating to find out truth about things that I'm interested in, because I love the Hashtag. You know what the papers don't say, and it's like finding that true behind the headlines and knowing what's going on. And from what I've seen from you know, my following on twitter and things like that. The following is just growing and growing, isn't it? You've got got more and more people subscribing and it's really growing. Well, is now? Yeah, and I...

...think, I think because we're subscription based, it's very much our readers sort of fund our work and I think that is so important in making people feel like we're building something new together in that, you know, when we don't have sort of any garbs or very rich people funding us with some police for views, we are independent. We do have eques slaves and scrutinized as we should the John's administration. Having said that, you know we've raised issues in the past about Jefrey Corbin and recently kissed Arma. With regards to Dominic Cummings, as will lock down behavior, whether the Labor Party did enough on that. So we do. Yeah, it is very much. You know, we are independent and you do pay for our work and I think in today's media landscape that matters to people. Also. I think our twitter is quite interesting in that we do we like engaging, we like interacting. Now you know, you know again, like it's not the we know more, we just happen to have you know set of journalists who can go out and spend the time getting the facts. We analysis and sort of new takes some things. But again, that belongs to all of us once it's out there and it's up to all of us what we want to do with that information. I think, and that's what you know, that notion of journals and being the fourth of state. You know, I think we've kind of lost that in media in recent years. I think we need to get back to that. That how you do it is by, you know, saying we're all we're all sort of democratic citizens living together and we all need to be aware of these things and trying to make people interested in them. Yeah, definitely, and one of the things I can find interesting is I know for the main people are right, but you also have lots of other writers that right for byline times and it always feels like it's lots of different voices. So interested to know your thoughts are kind of women and minorities in the media and what that's like and how byline times, kind of aline times, finds its writers. Yeah, so one of the reasons that we want to set up byline times as we felt that a lot of the problems of misrepresentation in some of the news media is a result of underrepresentation of genuinely diverse voices. And what I mean by that to sort of there's diversity within diversity, and nuance is the word I always use. You know, it thinks, I think, increasingly in a complex old people that for simplicity. I see my task as trying to bring the nuance to people and for new ones you need different voices, people with different lived experience, a different take on something, and so a big part of the remit is to you know, we always want more women journalist right for us. So if anyone's listening, please get in touch. We're always trying. We're very aware that we want to do more on that front we can and also sort of voice that, you know, new voices of color. So one of the things that we've done in regards to the latter is our lives matter, which was our sort of it's our new sort of series of work dedicated to giving new voices of color a platform,...

...and it in the wake of George Floyd's murder in America, we felt that we wants to use the platform that we've established to try and give that opportunity to people. So we've had some really interesting pieces that have come out of that. As you know, it's like privilege of my job has been to edit some of those pieces. I think we are I think the meter as a whole still needs to do a lot better with regards to women and minorities and, you know, then being able to see the profession of something which is feasible for them, not even not just to get a foot in the door in but then to flourish in. You know, I think I feel incredibly kind of honored to be a woman and what a person of color in the position I have, which is editorial. So I think it's about definitely about recruiting more gernalists. I mean we have a lot of journalists approach us, but we want to you know, sometimes we do put out calls for like the our lives matter series, and we love more women journals as well. So I think it's about that. I think it's about going and making an effort to find those people. I also think that, as I said, it's about at the editing level and at the commissioning level, you need we need women, need minority to need different diverse voices at that level and to make sure that you know that the stream of work that's coming through genuinely used reflective. So yeah, I think byline times is great in that sense, because I definitely kind of had you have a definite kind of slams on that in terms of, you know, representing minorities. I think it's something as a meter as the whole, needs to be able to do. I mean specifically on ethnic minor sort of specifically on kind of people from black or, I think, minorities. I think we had a really interesting piece that came out of the our lives matters series, which was by prickly Colosia, who wrote about generational fear holding young Asian people back, which I just absolutely loved when I saw it because being from that same background, from Asian Community, I knew exactly what he was saying. So he was saying that, you know, he wants to be a filmmaker, he wants to be a journalist, it's just not something that was ever presented to him as a career from by his family, by his community, and what he pinpointed was this notion of fear, so certain fear for your family or the community around you, that old you know, why are you going to go and do something different? It's not safe option. You know, what are you doing? And just exploring that in that article. It again. It's something I'm very aware of that certain people from certain minority communities will have, in a different, you know, in their in their own ways, these notions of sort of fears holding them back, barriers holding them back, of course, but sort of fears holding them back it in the first instance. And I you know, again that's something that needs to be appreciated more widely by the...

...media, that actually you do need to go out and recruit people from minorities, because there are certain kind of internalized mindsets. So those people will already have because one of the barriers that they quite clearly face systemic fly in society, but also this cultural level, which is, yeah, my you know, my parents were very perplexed. I said, well, I've done my law degree and now I'm even go and do something else like journalism. My Dad said, I don't know how you're going to get into John's. You know, they don't have any contact journalism. Have no idea how you get into something like that, and I think it's about you know, but but do editors appreciate that? Do you know? Do that any immediate get that that it's not just about well, you know, these people don't apply to us or you know, yeah, yeah, it's the common thing that said in all sorts of work, got sort of careers. I wasn't the Quipe kind of people that are just their onto you. We actually what have you done to look look for those people, and I call that article. I read that one. It's really resonated with me, coming from an Indian background, to it's kind of like if you're not going to be a doctor or an engineer, people don't understand what you're doing and it's that thing that those career choices aren't in your life for you to see. And I'm mental for a charity which is for girls, where their matched with a woman who mentors them for a year and the idea is it's that the Hashtag they use is you can't be what you can't see. So it's like for girls to actually see women doing these different careers help them to see the options, because otherwise, how do you know what careers there are? You know what things are available to you? You know, ten years ago the probably wasn't a job of social media manager. But now there is it's like how you know about those things if you're not exposed to them? which kind of leaves me to my next question. Do you think the media is becoming more accessible as a career choice for women minorities, or do you think it's still very much kind of a boys network and hard to get into as a career? I mean, so when I got into it there sort of eight years ago, I certainly had that perception in my mind that this as my dad said, you know, how are you going to get into journalism, and that that generational fear or piled on me and I thought, Oh my God, how would I ever get into journalism? Because I think it is still seen the mainstream. Asking from journalism is still seen as sort of, yeah, the domain of people who already in the know, and what I mean by that is people who have certain networks, have certain connections, and also people who, like from an from a much earlier time, are around sort of those sort of around journalism or but, you know, be being a journalist is a viable option. People who just sort of understand that much earlier and therefore see it as something they can realistically do. So I think has it changed? I mean, I think that still exists to some extent. I think anyone who gets into journalism always will think this is it's really hard thing to get...

...into. Having said that, I do think with the advent of social media, with the advent of people being able to build their own platforms, I do think things are starting to change, which is what we're trying to do with byline time, to build a platform which is which is meant to seem much more accessible so we get a lot of our journalists is you sham? You know, there are often people who you would term as sort of cits, citizen journalist, people who haven't done journalism training or anything like that but have a great nose for a story and want to sort of and it just needs some assistance to sort of get it out there. All kind of younger people who haven't got any experience of writing and want to, you know, get some get some things published, which will then help them kind of build up a portfolio. I do think byline times and sort of more accessible news publications are starting to help with that. Also, I think there is a kind of the Zitgeist is about sort of recognizing diversity and and sort of complexity is increasing. I still thing is difficult birth. So in that respect I see that as very hopeful. That, and this is what sort of Peter Jukes and Stephen Colgrave for the founders of byline times. So I've always said to me, you know, well, if if you feel you you know, if you feel you don't have a platform, you build your own platform. You build your own platform and then you have your own voice. Are you know, not not a voice that is sort of curtailed and influenced by what it's meant, what it has to sound like? That just your voice. So I think that is really so. I think that bit is that point is making germs and more accessible. I think when we're talking about the mainstream press, as I call it, the more establishment medium, I still think that. Yeah, I still think that those perceptions exist. Journal isn't hard to get into unless you have contacts, unless you have networks, unless you know that you want to do it from an early stage and you can get the work experience and portfolios, unless you have the resource is to be able to do on pay, work experiences, that all of those things is still problems. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and, as you know I'm involved in Sussex Y lines. I's been always resial by lines, fring out, which are all about citizen journalism and people having a go at writing something. I like to think we're kind of getting people published that could then pitched the art main by line times, creating those people that are just writing their citizens story, and it's been quite a powerful thing to get going. What I have seen from that. It's been my first kind of experiences of what social media can be like with those things and how do you deal with twitter trolls and the kind of social media interest comments, etc. That you get. Yeah, I'm absolutely thrilled at the regional by lines. I think it's...

...so I'm so pleased that they're developing because of that point I made early. You know, I started in local journalism and we've all seen how it's been obliterated. And again there's so much grassroots corruption and sort of scandal that is is sort of going on reported. You know, I very much believe that joms and starts from the grassroots up, and so I'm delighted that all these networks of by lines that are popping up. I think they're really vital. I think you're doing fantastic work and and that's the way to build that change, build those platforms. Twitter. Yes, I think social media is. I mean so the posting side is you can start building your own platform and gave it some followersm of that. Yeah, the the more that. The kind of darker side is, yeah, everyone, everyone can give you sort of their take on something. I think that's mainly can be very positive, because I think you want to hear from people who maybe have a different take on on what you've published, don't agree with it or want to challenge I think that's really important. Actually. I think what we try to do where we can, when we feel it's appropriate, is to engage with people on that, you know, and to either try to explain what our thinking was on my editorial level, or try to understand more about what their concerns are. When trolling, I think you know. So you engage where you feel it's constructive, where it's trolling, which I think is designed to shut down what we're you know, the nature of what we're all trying to do, which is inherently learn and share information and sort of gain knowledge, I don't yeah, I don't think that's helpful. I think early on, especially when we launched byline times, there was a lot of I think it was one ask for that. We published in particular about hedge funds. So the number of you know how much we raised. The notes. We raise the question that it's legitimate to you kind of ask whether it's right the Boris Johnson's party, and Boris Johnson himself has received a considerable amount of funding from people who happen to be associated with hedge funds and their roles sort of the no door, brexit and and that sort of thing, and it caused quite a you know, it's quite controversial. You know, sparks, all these conversations on twitter about the disaster capitalism and some people raised concerns about the article and the figures and we completely took our board and you know, we re issued a clarification and there's one point in it that needed clarifications. We did that and we refers to admit that we like. That's fine, but this that I have to admit, the snobbery and the sneering serious that went along with that. Oh, what's byline times? You know what is this and I think it does need to be called out. Move, and this is the sub...

...the establishment media kind of just being very smabbish, very sneering of what you know we were trying to just because that story happened to be quite controversial. When quite big and quite new, there's a lot of year and I just and for me that was really revealing because it proves the point I'm trying to make that you know it, you know. Yeah, so that was that was a revealing bit as I don't know if that answer a question, but yeah, it does definitely, and which kind of leaves me on to my next thought about one of this. So I obviously followed by line times avidly all the time and I've seen some of the stories. Do you get? Some stories particularly just get a higher profile. So there's been some particular articles that have and what I've seen is is that you've often uncovered things that appear in the mainstream media a bit later on. So there's been a quite a few times I've seen stories like that. There was one particular I saw that you wrote, I think, about Asian Hu minorities rating from Brexit, I think, which then appeared in another newspaper a bit later on. So I've seen that happen a few times. And I guess with the mainstream media, the establishment media. Do they engage with you and what do you do when they pick up on your stories like that and use them? Do you do anything about that? Yeah, so did they engage with us? I would say not, not on the level that sort of editors or reporters are approaching us from from those mainstream publications. I think it's great when sort of the Guardian or the BBC picks up on, you know, this thing about the hedge funds, which kind of you know, did end up questions where are asked in parliament about it. The former chance of Philip Hammond kind of raised raised the issue. Boris Johnson's own sister commented on it. So I mean none of that was related to by line times its initial sort of reporting, but it was gay to see that she picked up. Similarly, with the contracts that the government sort of signing with any number of companies, regardless of their expertise or they're sort of credit enthrals and their ties to the Conservative Party. That's a going on, that movement and has been kind of really anted up because of the chronavirus crisis to lots of contracts do with PPE and and sort of that sort of thing, which are, you know, where we're sort of out the forefront, top I would say, and I think there was also a story. So that's getting picked up by other outlets as well. There's another story about Dominic Cummings hiring a sort of social media digital company to do some coronavirus messaging, which also is popution in the Guardian. So there's and we, you know, we're not often, we're not really credited when that happens more. But it's okay because our we see our role existing as giving the mainstream media a nudge. You know, that's what the papers don't say. So when we that happens, we feel like our function is fulfilled. There have been instances where our workers I would arguably say it looks as if it's just been taken. So the article that, yeah, you...

...mentioned, I wrote quite a seminal piece, I guess, about why so many Asian immigrants go to leave the EU, based on the story of my parents, who immigrants from Ken you're in India, and both did vote leave. So I published that last sort of April, and then what was really interesting was recently it was just because a lot of our stories don't age. They're quite timeless because they're very they look at structural issues and society and politics. So that happens to be retweeted by some Chris Gray I think, who's quite a prominent brexit commentator, and it and the very next day the story appeared in the Express Online, which was building on the idea ideas that I raided, but took quite a lot high reporting with no credit. So I can say that we did raise the issue and it has now been deleted. I really okay for something did happen as a result. Interesting it was. It's just the story. That's so. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't sort of see sort of work that I done being being just kind of appeared to have just been lifted and sort of I'm told that there's a sort of yeah, yeah, interesting. And how about attention from, I don't know, radio, local radio, TV, things like that? Do you see? Do you get approaches from other forms of media for any of you to comment or appear as guests or anything like that, or are you still very much on the fringes and people don't really do that? Yeah, we do get approaches from I would say mainstream across radio and television, which is positive. So we have we have done a few things. Peter Juice has appeared on Sky News a few times. I've had some approaches from the times BBC, so that's really positive and I think when those approaches have been made, is to get sort of a not not different take but yeah, give you know, try to give a platform to people who might have, you know, might be able to shed different light on something. So that's really positive to see. I'll be on the fringes. So I'd say we're really proud of saying that we're outside of any system. So what we mean by that is just what is the reason I left law. In a way I found it very stimulating interesting, but I didn't want to be in that system. I'd rather be outside of it and deserve it and comments on it, and I think that's where our independence comes from and therefore sort of why people, why our readers, trustful you, we kind of produce. So we're very much outside of the system. I'll be I think I have a feeling that we're less. I think when we started we would be considered as quite like fringe on the fringes, rather not fringe fringes. I think that's so you starving to change. I think you know you've got some high profile sort of followers. Now. Peter Oborn took out a subscription to buyline times a couple of weeks ago and publicize that on twitter. I don't yeah, I don't think...

...it. I think it sits outside of the mainstream, but more and more people as sort of seeing that as a good thing, if you know what to me. Yeah, I mean that's what I'm seeing. I see more people there. I wouldn't have, not necessarily would be aware of you sharing your articles on social media and that's interesting. So they're also followed by line times. It's been really interesting from that expect that's happened. We've just sort of we very much have this policy in that, you know, we very passionate about what we do. We put it out there. We don't sort of make approaches to people to retweet art, don't make approaches to high profile people to retweet things, and so we just sort of in that sense, we just do what we do, keep focused on that. But it is it's fantastic that. You know. Yeah, they are being picked up. Yeah, I think we went, we were there was a hash. I think Jonathan List, one of our commentators, wrote to Peter About Boris Johnson be the anti prime ministers. Pretty far out that trended be anti, you know, the Anti Prime Minister. I woke up in the morning and I was like, Oh, just that same morning we were trained to yeah, so that today. I remember seeing that. Then, you know, what a turn. And then our website had so many clicks onto it but it kind of crashed. Yes, I saw that, which was Connia. But yeah, I know it's really positive to see that. Yeah, and so what next from my line times? Support do you see? I see you're trying to get to a certain number of subscribers, aren't you aged as one of your goals. But, yeah, what do you see as next for my line times? Yeah, so we're very first approaching tenzero subscribers across. So the print edition, which can get to Dover to your door or a digital version of that into your inbox. That would be a real milestone for us. I think it's just expands what we can do in terms of more more, you know, more journalist, more invest you know, longer investigations and yeah, just you know also that you know. Yeah, so I think that that's A. that's a real sort of aim of ours. We want so, I guess in a wider sense, we all we want to have impact, you know. So this journey of having launched last March, being on the fringes and slowly more people are becoming aware of us. It's yes, it is to knowdge them, give the mainstream media or nudge, but but it's also to we want. We're doing this because we feel that, you know, the mainstream media is failing in certain regards to properly scrutinize and examine and some of the more structural issues and conflicts, especially politically, that are present, and so we want the work we do to have some influence on that. We we do want questions to be asked in parliament, you know. We do want people to be more informed. They might write to their MP and I think it's very easy with journalism, especially today, because it's seven, you just get lost and drop, you know, lost in this see of information. There's information everywhere. But then what do you...

...do once you have that information? So I think that's our that's our real real goal, to sort of increase and work on how the increase the impact that we could. We can have for our read just by highlighting highlighting these issues. We've also got biling TV, which is a sister company. It's separate to byline times, and it's just that it's this is a company that launched recently with the Tagline if you love byline times, you'll love biling TV. So that's sort of a parallel projects that's happening. And again that same that same notion that you know what the peoples don't say again in sort of film and video gens that we want to examine sort of unreported issues and unreported voices and angles. So we're hoping to do that. Yeah, we just we just hope to keep we want more people to read the you know, care of us. We want to you know, we are independent, so we are, you know, not so afraid of reporting on we know it's not we're not fitting any party. So you know, well, if you can get more resources, we're going to get more people in and we can start covering some areas that I think we could do more on as well. Yeah, so I just hope it's sort of I yeah, and also this notion of the news, the newspaper, having a newspaper and reading it I like. I like to think that you know, that becomes that that state, you know that that I'd like to think that that just grows in terms of the number of people who are pretty you know really in these times again, with you know, digital newspape or seven social media, people really see the value of having, you know, something in their hands or they can read over the course for a month and really kind of dip in and out of at their own pace and made them think about things. I hope the appeal of that keeps growing. I hope people want that. I think it's I think it's pretty special. So yeah, I think, yeah, great stuff. So, yeah, I subscribe to the Digital Edition, but actually most friends as subscribed. I've got the paper version and I'm thinking, actually, I see the value of that because, as you say, the pieces are kind of time they don't age in terms of news sort of of the moment. It means you can read it over the months. So I can see why people are going for the paper version, for sure. So where do people find you and how do people approached byline times if they're interested to know more, if they want to write? Yes, so obviously we have our new site, which is byline Timescom, which is free for everyone to access. On that website you have, there's a there's a subscribe button which...

...gives lots of options as to how you can support us. Subscribe to the print Le Digital Editions. We do want to hear from JAL on this, with a story, new voices, new angles, and it's news at byline Timescom or Info at Buyin Timescom or my email address, which is also on my twitter page, which is hardy, at Buyin Timescom. So yeah, we encourage people to get in touch, especially those who feel that they have not had a platform elsewhere and you know, yeah, have something you to say, something you wants to say. We're really looking for that. So please do get in touch. Brilliant. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. I really hope one day we can meet in person. That will happens soon, but yeah, it's really great to talk to you. Thank you so much, and this has been the reimagination at work podcast with our wonderful guest harding. The theory from the byline times. You can find watch this space at watch this space of DOT UK and on social media to watch this spce and Linkedin watch this spe thanks so much. Tune in for the next episode.

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