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Hardeep Matharu, Byline Times Editor on Speaking Truth to Power

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Hardeep Matharu, editor of Byline Times speaks to Mo Kanjilal about her career journey, why the Byline Times was needed to speak truth to power in the face of the establishment media.

We learn Hardeeps thoughts on minorities in the media, online abuse, and the importance of providing a platform for wide-ranging voices to be heard so people can access and share the truth.

Find out more about the Byline Times here: https://bylinetimes.com/
Follow Hardeep Matharu on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Hardeep_Matharu

Find out more about Watch This Sp_ce and the Reimagination At Work podcast here: https://www.watchthisspace.uk/
Follow Mo on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/Mo_Kanjilal
Follow Watch This Sp_ce here: https://twitter.com/Watchthisspce

Don't forget to like and subscribe to support our messages of diversity and inclusion and never miss any of 'em! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeY0nmdJ1LsB_NWSJAdxaMw
 

Hi and welcome to the reimagination atwork podcast from watch this space. This is the podcast where we ask youto challenge your assumptions and we talk about interesting subjects and often have different guestson the show with us, and today I'm absolutely delighted to be joined byhardy with Theuru, who is editor of the byline times. Hardy than Ihave been trying to meet since January, I think, as when we firststarted talking on twitter. There's an absolute pleasure to actually meet on Zoom andhopefully one day in person. So thank you so much, hardy, forjoining us. Thank you for having me. Yeah, really great to finally talkto you. And so, to start with, can you just tellus about you your career and about byline times and where it started? Yes, so I got into journalism at the start, around two thousand and twelve. So I had graduated with the law degree and I had had this planto join the legal profession and very much that was all sort of set outin my mind when I got to university. But then, having done a degreewhich which I really quite enjoyed, I just realized that sort of lawwas interesting because it was all about sort of you know, these these blackand white sort of rules and regulations and pillars which ultimately governs human behavior,which is completely gray. And so what I realized is that I wanted toexplore the gray and explore society in a much wider sense and ask questions andthat sort of thing. So, having graduated, I ended up doing ajoms and diploma at Junes and school, so I didn't NC TJ which wasfor six months, and learn how to write shorthand and all the basic reportingskills, which was great fun and really useful. And then I actually startedas a trainee reporter on a local title. So it's called the extent Guardian,which was part of the south London Guardian series. Note that it's apaper which doesn't now exist in its own right and it was it's a newsquest, news quest title. And Yeah, I covered the air of EPSOM spentthree years sort of talking to people from everything about sort of, you know, to know clinical commissioning groups and the future of the hospital, to potholes to, you know, prisons, the prisons crisis, because the area'sMP is Chris grayling. So it was it was a really great time tosort of really learn, learn your craft and learn the trade of journalism andI think local journalism and absolutely we're sort of in the investigatory element of whatthe press does should begin, you know,...

...and does begin, and certainly whenI was there it was, you know, we go to council meetings, we being court cases. You know, you got to know the community thatyou are covering, and so there was that sense that, you know, there was local papers could have the resources at that time just about tostill scrutinize what was going on and stand up for local people. I actuallyso I worked my way up and I begin an acting editor and then Ileft in about two thousand and fifteen because the company was making advances, asunfortunately is the case all over the country with local papers, and I decidedit was time to move on anyway. So I went briefly to the independentwhere I was an online a news reporter, and that was the time, though, that the independent print edition was shutting down as all moving online.So it was it was sort of a very chaotic time, I would say, and I just didn't ask yeah, it just being an online reported drivenby content wasn't quite what I was looking to do. So I wouldn't freelance. Did some criminal justice reporting for a few years, as always interested inprisons and notions rebilitation, having done my law degree. And eventually I wasjust writing a blog and someone put me in touch with Peter Jukes of bylinecomand I'd heard of bilnecom. I didn't know Peter and they suggested that Ishould start writing these blogs on byndcom, which was, it is, acrowdfunded journalist website. So I still still in existence, and the kind ofpoint being that if people like your work, they pay for you to do it. So yeah, so I started doing that and then, yeah,that Peter and Steven Colgrave, who both both run bydcom, and about ayear of getting to know them, I would say to them I you know, I love that I can still do my reporting and be freelance, butI really miss my newsroom. I miss that feeling of a newspapers. There'ssomething about a newspaper that's so special and important. And and then they kindof said, well, why don't, why don't we set one up?You know we can, we we think we can do it. We've gotsome initial funding and we can do that. So last March we set up bylinetimes, which is it which aims to cover what the papers don't say. So what we felt was there is definitely a gap in the market fornews which is a bit old, you know, which is old school,which is about investigation, which is about analysis, which doesn't necessarily tell youwhat to think, but shows you what's happening, gives you the tools toinform you, as a sort of democratic citizen, about what's really happening.And so what we tend to we don't focus on a new cycle. Obviously, when big developments and events are happening, we kind of real recovered them,but always, you know, from a Lens, looking at it fora lens which perhaps you know, hasn't...

...been brought to light. So that'swhat we do. So stories that you can't find elsewhere in the media,and I would say so, for example, you know, media corruption. Wedo a lot about Islama, you know, highlighting is laman phobia.We did a lot about Russia and Russian interference, the rise of our rights, deve banner and all these sorts of areas. So there's that, andthen also the subjects which are covered, but where we feel we have anew take on something or new voices. So that's yeah, so by timesis a daily new site which is free for people to access, and ifwe do a monthly print edition, which is yeah. So when, whenit first started, Steven said, Oh, we must do we must do aprint edition, and yeah, and so it's really it's just really takenoff actually. And so we do a thirst page newspaper and Yeah, wewe kind of edit it and produce it in house. So yeah, andso it's it's been a fantastic journey, even since last March. I thinkwhat we have found is people are crying out for the type of thing thatwe're offering, which is, you know, what is actually happening, not justpeople's opinions of usual things, but what is actually happening. You know, what kind of links and connections are not being brought to the surface.Yeah, I think there's a real need for that and also journalism that reallyspeaks to its readership. And what I mean by that is byline times isnot sort of it's not part of what I call the establishment media. Youknow, it sits outside of the main street, but there is an establishmentmedia and byling times it's saying, well, you know, it's not like me, Peter and Stephen are, you know, these sort of philosophical guruswho know what's best and kind of send that down to our readers. We'resaying, you know what, we're on on a level here. We're just, you know, you know, we're where there's no kind of hierarchical natureof what we do between the you know, the Germans, the editors and thereaders, and I think there is in the establishment media that that doeshappen, where you feel there's, you know, a group of people whoare the people who can tell you what's happening and then every everyone else whokind of sits below that. We're much more kind of, you know,we just want to really talk to people about what's happening. Well, theycare about yeah, definitely. When I'm a huge fan of byline times andit always feels like that, always feels like it's people that I would knowand speaks who have done the investigating to find out truth about things that I'minterested in, because I love the Hashtag. You know what the papers don't say, and it's like finding that true behind the headlines and knowing what's goingon. And from what I've seen from you know, my following on twitterand things like that. The following is just growing and growing, isn't it? You've got got more and more people subscribing and it's really growing. Well, is now? Yeah, and I...

...think, I think because we're subscriptionbased, it's very much our readers sort of fund our work and I thinkthat is so important in making people feel like we're building something new together inthat, you know, when we don't have sort of any garbs or veryrich people funding us with some police for views, we are independent. Wedo have eques slaves and scrutinized as we should the John's administration. Having saidthat, you know we've raised issues in the past about Jefrey Corbin and recentlykissed Arma. With regards to Dominic Cummings, as will lock down behavior, whetherthe Labor Party did enough on that. So we do. Yeah, itis very much. You know, we are independent and you do payfor our work and I think in today's media landscape that matters to people.Also. I think our twitter is quite interesting in that we do we likeengaging, we like interacting. Now you know, you know again, likeit's not the we know more, we just happen to have you know setof journalists who can go out and spend the time getting the facts. Weanalysis and sort of new takes some things. But again, that belongs to allof us once it's out there and it's up to all of us whatwe want to do with that information. I think, and that's what youknow, that notion of journals and being the fourth of state. You know, I think we've kind of lost that in media in recent years. Ithink we need to get back to that. That how you do it is by, you know, saying we're all we're all sort of democratic citizens livingtogether and we all need to be aware of these things and trying to makepeople interested in them. Yeah, definitely, and one of the things I canfind interesting is I know for the main people are right, but youalso have lots of other writers that right for byline times and it always feelslike it's lots of different voices. So interested to know your thoughts are kindof women and minorities in the media and what that's like and how byline times, kind of aline times, finds its writers. Yeah, so one ofthe reasons that we want to set up byline times as we felt that alot of the problems of misrepresentation in some of the news media is a resultof underrepresentation of genuinely diverse voices. And what I mean by that to sortof there's diversity within diversity, and nuance is the word I always use.You know, it thinks, I think, increasingly in a complex old people thatfor simplicity. I see my task as trying to bring the nuance topeople and for new ones you need different voices, people with different lived experience, a different take on something, and so a big part of the remitis to you know, we always want more women journalist right for us.So if anyone's listening, please get in touch. We're always trying. We'revery aware that we want to do more on that front we can and alsosort of voice that, you know, new voices of color. So oneof the things that we've done in regards to the latter is our lives matter, which was our sort of it's our new sort of series of work dedicatedto giving new voices of color a platform,...

...and it in the wake of GeorgeFloyd's murder in America, we felt that we wants to use the platformthat we've established to try and give that opportunity to people. So we've hadsome really interesting pieces that have come out of that. As you know,it's like privilege of my job has been to edit some of those pieces.I think we are I think the meter as a whole still needs to doa lot better with regards to women and minorities and, you know, thenbeing able to see the profession of something which is feasible for them, noteven not just to get a foot in the door in but then to flourishin. You know, I think I feel incredibly kind of honored to bea woman and what a person of color in the position I have, whichis editorial. So I think it's about definitely about recruiting more gernalists. Imean we have a lot of journalists approach us, but we want to youknow, sometimes we do put out calls for like the our lives matter series, and we love more women journals as well. So I think it's aboutthat. I think it's about going and making an effort to find those people. I also think that, as I said, it's about at the editinglevel and at the commissioning level, you need we need women, need minorityto need different diverse voices at that level and to make sure that you knowthat the stream of work that's coming through genuinely used reflective. So yeah,I think byline times is great in that sense, because I definitely kind ofhad you have a definite kind of slams on that in terms of, youknow, representing minorities. I think it's something as a meter as the whole, needs to be able to do. I mean specifically on ethnic minor sortof specifically on kind of people from black or, I think, minorities.I think we had a really interesting piece that came out of the our livesmatters series, which was by prickly Colosia, who wrote about generational fear holding youngAsian people back, which I just absolutely loved when I saw it becausebeing from that same background, from Asian Community, I knew exactly what hewas saying. So he was saying that, you know, he wants to bea filmmaker, he wants to be a journalist, it's just not somethingthat was ever presented to him as a career from by his family, byhis community, and what he pinpointed was this notion of fear, so certainfear for your family or the community around you, that old you know,why are you going to go and do something different? It's not safe option. You know, what are you doing? And just exploring that in that article. It again. It's something I'm very aware of that certain people fromcertain minority communities will have, in a different, you know, in theirin their own ways, these notions of sort of fears holding them back,barriers holding them back, of course, but sort of fears holding them backit in the first instance. And I you know, again that's something thatneeds to be appreciated more widely by the...

...media, that actually you do needto go out and recruit people from minorities, because there are certain kind of internalizedmindsets. So those people will already have because one of the barriers thatthey quite clearly face systemic fly in society, but also this cultural level, whichis, yeah, my you know, my parents were very perplexed. Isaid, well, I've done my law degree and now I'm even goand do something else like journalism. My Dad said, I don't know howyou're going to get into John's. You know, they don't have any contactjournalism. Have no idea how you get into something like that, and Ithink it's about you know, but but do editors appreciate that? Do youknow? Do that any immediate get that that it's not just about well,you know, these people don't apply to us or you know, yeah,yeah, it's the common thing that said in all sorts of work, gotsort of careers. I wasn't the Quipe kind of people that are just theironto you. We actually what have you done to look look for those people, and I call that article. I read that one. It's really resonatedwith me, coming from an Indian background, to it's kind of like if you'renot going to be a doctor or an engineer, people don't understand whatyou're doing and it's that thing that those career choices aren't in your life foryou to see. And I'm mental for a charity which is for girls,where their matched with a woman who mentors them for a year and the ideais it's that the Hashtag they use is you can't be what you can't see. So it's like for girls to actually see women doing these different careers helpthem to see the options, because otherwise, how do you know what careers thereare? You know what things are available to you? You know,ten years ago the probably wasn't a job of social media manager. But nowthere is it's like how you know about those things if you're not exposed tothem? which kind of leaves me to my next question. Do you thinkthe media is becoming more accessible as a career choice for women minorities, ordo you think it's still very much kind of a boys network and hard toget into as a career? I mean, so when I got into it theresort of eight years ago, I certainly had that perception in my mindthat this as my dad said, you know, how are you going toget into journalism, and that that generational fear or piled on me and Ithought, Oh my God, how would I ever get into journalism? BecauseI think it is still seen the mainstream. Asking from journalism is still seen assort of, yeah, the domain of people who already in the know, and what I mean by that is people who have certain networks, havecertain connections, and also people who, like from an from a much earliertime, are around sort of those sort of around journalism or but, youknow, be being a journalist is a viable option. People who just sortof understand that much earlier and therefore see it as something they can realistically do. So I think has it changed? I mean, I think that stillexists to some extent. I think anyone who gets into journalism always will thinkthis is it's really hard thing to get...

...into. Having said that, Ido think with the advent of social media, with the advent of people being ableto build their own platforms, I do think things are starting to change, which is what we're trying to do with byline time, to build aplatform which is which is meant to seem much more accessible so we get alot of our journalists is you sham? You know, there are often peoplewho you would term as sort of cits, citizen journalist, people who haven't donejournalism training or anything like that but have a great nose for a storyand want to sort of and it just needs some assistance to sort of getit out there. All kind of younger people who haven't got any experience ofwriting and want to, you know, get some get some things published,which will then help them kind of build up a portfolio. I do thinkbyline times and sort of more accessible news publications are starting to help with that. Also, I think there is a kind of the Zitgeist is about sortof recognizing diversity and and sort of complexity is increasing. I still thing isdifficult birth. So in that respect I see that as very hopeful. That, and this is what sort of Peter Jukes and Stephen Colgrave for the foundersof byline times. So I've always said to me, you know, well, if if you feel you you know, if you feel you don't have aplatform, you build your own platform. You build your own platform and thenyou have your own voice. Are you know, not not a voicethat is sort of curtailed and influenced by what it's meant, what it hasto sound like? That just your voice. So I think that is really so. I think that bit is that point is making germs and more accessible. I think when we're talking about the mainstream press, as I call it, the more establishment medium, I still think that. Yeah, I stillthink that those perceptions exist. Journal isn't hard to get into unless you havecontacts, unless you have networks, unless you know that you want to doit from an early stage and you can get the work experience and portfolios,unless you have the resource is to be able to do on pay, workexperiences, that all of those things is still problems. Yeah, definitely.Yeah, and, as you know I'm involved in Sussex Y lines. I'sbeen always resial by lines, fring out, which are all about citizen journalism andpeople having a go at writing something. I like to think we're kind ofgetting people published that could then pitched the art main by line times,creating those people that are just writing their citizens story, and it's been quitea powerful thing to get going. What I have seen from that. It'sbeen my first kind of experiences of what social media can be like with thosethings and how do you deal with twitter trolls and the kind of social mediainterest comments, etc. That you get. Yeah, I'm absolutely thrilled at theregional by lines. I think it's...

...so I'm so pleased that they're developingbecause of that point I made early. You know, I started in localjournalism and we've all seen how it's been obliterated. And again there's so muchgrassroots corruption and sort of scandal that is is sort of going on reported.You know, I very much believe that joms and starts from the grassroots up, and so I'm delighted that all these networks of by lines that are poppingup. I think they're really vital. I think you're doing fantastic work andand that's the way to build that change, build those platforms. Twitter. Yes, I think social media is. I mean so the posting side isyou can start building your own platform and gave it some followersm of that.Yeah, the the more that. The kind of darker side is, yeah, everyone, everyone can give you sort of their take on something. Ithink that's mainly can be very positive, because I think you want to hearfrom people who maybe have a different take on on what you've published, don'tagree with it or want to challenge I think that's really important. Actually.I think what we try to do where we can, when we feel it'sappropriate, is to engage with people on that, you know, and toeither try to explain what our thinking was on my editorial level, or tryto understand more about what their concerns are. When trolling, I think you know. So you engage where you feel it's constructive, where it's trolling,which I think is designed to shut down what we're you know, the natureof what we're all trying to do, which is inherently learn and share informationand sort of gain knowledge, I don't yeah, I don't think that's helpful. I think early on, especially when we launched byline times, there wasa lot of I think it was one ask for that. We published inparticular about hedge funds. So the number of you know how much we raised. The notes. We raise the question that it's legitimate to you kind ofask whether it's right the Boris Johnson's party, and Boris Johnson himself has received aconsiderable amount of funding from people who happen to be associated with hedge fundsand their roles sort of the no door, brexit and and that sort of thing, and it caused quite a you know, it's quite controversial. Youknow, sparks, all these conversations on twitter about the disaster capitalism and somepeople raised concerns about the article and the figures and we completely took our boardand you know, we re issued a clarification and there's one point in itthat needed clarifications. We did that and we refers to admit that we like. That's fine, but this that I have to admit, the snobbery andthe sneering serious that went along with that. Oh, what's byline times? Youknow what is this and I think it does need to be called out. Move, and this is the sub...

...the establishment media kind of just beingvery smabbish, very sneering of what you know we were trying to just becausethat story happened to be quite controversial. When quite big and quite new,there's a lot of year and I just and for me that was really revealingbecause it proves the point I'm trying to make that you know it, youknow. Yeah, so that was that was a revealing bit as I don'tknow if that answer a question, but yeah, it does definitely, andwhich kind of leaves me on to my next thought about one of this.So I obviously followed by line times avidly all the time and I've seen someof the stories. Do you get? Some stories particularly just get a higherprofile. So there's been some particular articles that have and what I've seen isis that you've often uncovered things that appear in the mainstream media a bit lateron. So there's been a quite a few times I've seen stories like that. There was one particular I saw that you wrote, I think, aboutAsian Hu minorities rating from Brexit, I think, which then appeared in anothernewspaper a bit later on. So I've seen that happen a few times.And I guess with the mainstream media, the establishment media. Do they engagewith you and what do you do when they pick up on your stories likethat and use them? Do you do anything about that? Yeah, sodid they engage with us? I would say not, not on the levelthat sort of editors or reporters are approaching us from from those mainstream publications.I think it's great when sort of the Guardian or the BBC picks up on, you know, this thing about the hedge funds, which kind of youknow, did end up questions where are asked in parliament about it. Theformer chance of Philip Hammond kind of raised raised the issue. Boris Johnson's ownsister commented on it. So I mean none of that was related to byline times its initial sort of reporting, but it was gay to see thatshe picked up. Similarly, with the contracts that the government sort of signingwith any number of companies, regardless of their expertise or they're sort of creditenthrals and their ties to the Conservative Party. That's a going on, that movementand has been kind of really anted up because of the chronavirus crisis tolots of contracts do with PPE and and sort of that sort of thing,which are, you know, where we're sort of out the forefront, topI would say, and I think there was also a story. So that'sgetting picked up by other outlets as well. There's another story about Dominic Cummings hiringa sort of social media digital company to do some coronavirus messaging, whichalso is popution in the Guardian. So there's and we, you know,we're not often, we're not really credited when that happens more. But it'sokay because our we see our role existing as giving the mainstream media a nudge. You know, that's what the papers don't say. So when we thathappens, we feel like our function is fulfilled. There have been instances whereour workers I would arguably say it looks as if it's just been taken.So the article that, yeah, you...

...mentioned, I wrote quite a seminalpiece, I guess, about why so many Asian immigrants go to leave theEU, based on the story of my parents, who immigrants from Ken you'rein India, and both did vote leave. So I published that last sort ofApril, and then what was really interesting was recently it was just becausea lot of our stories don't age. They're quite timeless because they're very theylook at structural issues and society and politics. So that happens to be retweeted bysome Chris Gray I think, who's quite a prominent brexit commentator, andit and the very next day the story appeared in the Express Online, whichwas building on the idea ideas that I raided, but took quite a lothigh reporting with no credit. So I can say that we did raise theissue and it has now been deleted. I really okay for something did happenas a result. Interesting it was. It's just the story. That's so. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't sort of see sort of work that Idone being being just kind of appeared to have just been lifted and sort ofI'm told that there's a sort of yeah, yeah, interesting. And how aboutattention from, I don't know, radio, local radio, TV,things like that? Do you see? Do you get approaches from other formsof media for any of you to comment or appear as guests or anything likethat, or are you still very much on the fringes and people don't reallydo that? Yeah, we do get approaches from I would say mainstream acrossradio and television, which is positive. So we have we have done afew things. Peter Juice has appeared on Sky News a few times. I'vehad some approaches from the times BBC, so that's really positive and I thinkwhen those approaches have been made, is to get sort of a not notdifferent take but yeah, give you know, try to give a platform to peoplewho might have, you know, might be able to shed different lighton something. So that's really positive to see. I'll be on the fringes. So I'd say we're really proud of saying that we're outside of any system. So what we mean by that is just what is the reason I leftlaw. In a way I found it very stimulating interesting, but I didn'twant to be in that system. I'd rather be outside of it and deserveit and comments on it, and I think that's where our independence comes fromand therefore sort of why people, why our readers, trustful you, wekind of produce. So we're very much outside of the system. I'll beI think I have a feeling that we're less. I think when we startedwe would be considered as quite like fringe on the fringes, rather not fringefringes. I think that's so you starving to change. I think you knowyou've got some high profile sort of followers. Now. Peter Oborn took out asubscription to buyline times a couple of weeks ago and publicize that on twitter. I don't yeah, I don't think...

...it. I think it sits outsideof the mainstream, but more and more people as sort of seeing that asa good thing, if you know what to me. Yeah, I meanthat's what I'm seeing. I see more people there. I wouldn't have,not necessarily would be aware of you sharing your articles on social media and that'sinteresting. So they're also followed by line times. It's been really interesting fromthat expect that's happened. We've just sort of we very much have this policyin that, you know, we very passionate about what we do. Weput it out there. We don't sort of make approaches to people to retweetart, don't make approaches to high profile people to retweet things, and sowe just sort of in that sense, we just do what we do,keep focused on that. But it is it's fantastic that. You know.Yeah, they are being picked up. Yeah, I think we went,we were there was a hash. I think Jonathan List, one of ourcommentators, wrote to Peter About Boris Johnson be the anti prime ministers. Prettyfar out that trended be anti, you know, the Anti Prime Minister.I woke up in the morning and I was like, Oh, just thatsame morning we were trained to yeah, so that today. I remember seeingthat. Then, you know, what a turn. And then our websitehad so many clicks onto it but it kind of crashed. Yes, Isaw that, which was Connia. But yeah, I know it's really positiveto see that. Yeah, and so what next from my line times?Support do you see? I see you're trying to get to a certain numberof subscribers, aren't you aged as one of your goals. But, yeah, what do you see as next for my line times? Yeah, sowe're very first approaching tenzero subscribers across. So the print edition, which canget to Dover to your door or a digital version of that into your inbox. That would be a real milestone for us. I think it's just expandswhat we can do in terms of more more, you know, more journalist, more invest you know, longer investigations and yeah, just you know alsothat you know. Yeah, so I think that that's A. that's areal sort of aim of ours. We want so, I guess in awider sense, we all we want to have impact, you know. Sothis journey of having launched last March, being on the fringes and slowly morepeople are becoming aware of us. It's yes, it is to knowdge them, give the mainstream media or nudge, but but it's also to we want. We're doing this because we feel that, you know, the mainstream media isfailing in certain regards to properly scrutinize and examine and some of the morestructural issues and conflicts, especially politically, that are present, and so wewant the work we do to have some influence on that. We we dowant questions to be asked in parliament, you know. We do want peopleto be more informed. They might write to their MP and I think it'svery easy with journalism, especially today, because it's seven, you just getlost and drop, you know, lost in this see of information. There'sinformation everywhere. But then what do you...

...do once you have that information?So I think that's our that's our real real goal, to sort of increaseand work on how the increase the impact that we could. We can havefor our read just by highlighting highlighting these issues. We've also got biling TV, which is a sister company. It's separate to byline times, and it'sjust that it's this is a company that launched recently with the Tagline if youlove byline times, you'll love biling TV. So that's sort of a parallel projectsthat's happening. And again that same that same notion that you know whatthe peoples don't say again in sort of film and video gens that we wantto examine sort of unreported issues and unreported voices and angles. So we're hopingto do that. Yeah, we just we just hope to keep we wantmore people to read the you know, care of us. We want toyou know, we are independent, so we are, you know, notso afraid of reporting on we know it's not we're not fitting any party.So you know, well, if you can get more resources, we're goingto get more people in and we can start covering some areas that I thinkwe could do more on as well. Yeah, so I just hope it'ssort of I yeah, and also this notion of the news, the newspaper, having a newspaper and reading it I like. I like to think thatyou know, that becomes that that state, you know that that I'd like tothink that that just grows in terms of the number of people who arepretty you know really in these times again, with you know, digital newspape orseven social media, people really see the value of having, you know, something in their hands or they can read over the course for a monthand really kind of dip in and out of at their own pace and madethem think about things. I hope the appeal of that keeps growing. Ihope people want that. I think it's I think it's pretty special. Soyeah, I think, yeah, great stuff. So, yeah, Isubscribe to the Digital Edition, but actually most friends as subscribed. I've gotthe paper version and I'm thinking, actually, I see the value of that because, as you say, the pieces are kind of time they don't agein terms of news sort of of the moment. It means you can readit over the months. So I can see why people are going for thepaper version, for sure. So where do people find you and how dopeople approached byline times if they're interested to know more, if they want towrite? Yes, so obviously we have our new site, which is bylineTimescom, which is free for everyone to access. On that website you have, there's a there's a subscribe button which...

...gives lots of options as to howyou can support us. Subscribe to the print Le Digital Editions. We dowant to hear from JAL on this, with a story, new voices,new angles, and it's news at byline Timescom or Info at Buyin Timescom ormy email address, which is also on my twitter page, which is hardy, at Buyin Timescom. So yeah, we encourage people to get in touch, especially those who feel that they have not had a platform elsewhere and youknow, yeah, have something you to say, something you wants to say. We're really looking for that. So please do get in touch. Brilliant. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. I really hope one day we can meet in person. That will happenssoon, but yeah, it's really great to talk to you. Thank youso much, and this has been the reimagination at work podcast with our wonderfulguest harding. The theory from the byline times. You can find watch thisspace at watch this space of DOT UK and on social media to watch thisspce and Linkedin watch this spe thanks so much. Tune in for the nextepisode.

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