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Episode 2: Getting Back to ‘Normal’: How's That Going to Work?!

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Hello and welcome to the reaimagination at work podcast. This is a podcast where we seek to challenge allthe assumptions about work in order to build a new and better landscape foreveryone. This is the second episode of our three part series. Looking at thenew normal following the coronavirus pandemic. Last time we looked at somepredictions for the future post apocalypse, which you can check out andsee how right we are spoiter alert. We're always very right this week, as aLok down begins to ease we're talking about getting back to normal, so how'sthat going to work. I'm your haste for this week's episode.My name is Alegra Chapman and I'm one of the cocreators of whatch this space,a consultency services that helps businesses to create more diverse andinclusive, and therefore more powerful and successful workforces. I'm joinedby my fellow watch this space co creators, my Candelel, I'm RachelParson. How are you both doing hello? Thank Yoah, good, I'm good. I've had agood week, which is nice, yeah e egood yeah. I know that soundsstrange to be saying good in the strange world, but yeah good. Thedefinition of good, I think, has changed considerably now. Werein awhole new world of whay is good yeah. Definitely, I think it', even if you'refeeling sane and kind of okay, then that's the defined n, the newdefinition of good, I think yeah we're going to take our goods where we canget them Ye. absolate me. We need to right now, so that leaves me neatly into talkingabout getting back to normal and whatever normal is now, because we havehad to completely redefine what normal is, but things are starting to start tomove back in a a more normal direction. Now look down to easing a little bit.Some people are able to go back to work. Some people are able to travel a littlebit more to maybe do more things go out. A little bit more siy thinks arestarting to move in he direction of what they were like before. All thishappens. So how do we get about getting back to normal of Yiew? I think WOL TDA.Certainly, my view is that we shouldn't get back to nowal. Normal was notworking, normal had a lot of problems and a lot of issues, so we've got areal chance now, as the world starts to reset itself to redefine what normal isand build something new. As aways on this podcast, everybody is going tomake two suggestions for how they think things ought to go and at the end wewill pick our favorite to, and then we will put that to you every people by asocial media feat about and what's the new definition of normal should litlike so Mo. Let's start with you, so what is the new normal going to be? Howis it going to work? So my first prediction is like the obvious one,which is going to be more right working. What you mean by that is companies, organizations that said itcouldn't work to have people working remotely have had to they've had tochange to that and actually for a lot of people. It's been a positiveexperience because it meant they can continue to operate from home. It's betmore flexibility, people of Works, different hours to fit around Theilitofstyles they've had to because of trial care. It's completely changed.All of that. There are things we need to watch out for so it hasn't beenpositive for everyone. So, for example, there's some single moms. I know whereyou know that it's been a nightmane to be honest, for them hit hasn't beeneasy for everyone. Not Everybody has a space. They can work in again. Someoneelse I can think of that. I know who doesn't have a like of space, that theycan work in in their home. So it's not like it's this huge hopen thing, butthere is inevitably going to be more about working and there areimplications of that too, because itill means that a lot of cominies wil thinwere greater an Sayv cost now on office. baces. Don't need to do that nowbecause inm, how everyone working from...

...home. But that means that thenbusinesses really need to think about the culture, their company culture andhow that's going to work, because you could end up witlow to people justfeeling really distracted noisolated, and I say that someone myself who getsa lot of energy from being around people. So for you know, for me it'sbeen a real adjustment to do everything from home all of the time and not beable to bounce off ideas of people, and things like that. So there's lots ofimpications around it, but I would say overall, it's going to happen. There isgoing to be more about working. That's my first prediction. I think that's areally good point, actually that a lot of companies maybe have neglected tothink about. You can't just shift your existing business, an your existingculture, exactly how it worked offline online and expect everything to work inthe same way. It is a different way of doing things where you have a lot ofpromote workers, and that takes a lot of thinking about in how your systemsand your processes and your company culture are going to work. It's not asympolisis going, Oh ee, just all going to track on flack now, and we have ourmeetings on zoom there's more to think about than that. Definitely it isinteresting and I am wondering how many people out there have been pished outof their jobs or lost jobs, or you know felt they had to step out of careersbecause they wanted flexible working opportunities and were told that theycouldn't have them that their business wouldn't accommodate flexible workingand now are sitting back and watching all those businesses take everythingremote and have everybody remite working and how they feel about thatbecausethere's. Definitely some people who were told that that absolutelycouldn't happen HM. I wonder as well, if the reverse is also the case, so forpeople who are not people and businesses, bus emphasis on thebusinesses who are never even considered the working remotely and allof the kind of infrastructure and tech and learning and doing things in adifferent way that that takes we weren't prepared for having to do that. They didn't have like the knowledge orthe skills or any of the tools to do that. wher, the people have left jobsor feel like they're being pushed out of jobs or really struggling with theirjobs because of that imprepet unprepared in preparedtiss. One ofthose is a word and they don't feel like they're being successful in theirrole anymore because of these new challenges of having to work remotely,but the infrastructure not being there properly. There's lots of businessesthat we work in digitual roles and you know, or relatively young still. So youknow all of this stuff is is kind of second nature to us, becauseit's part of our jobs, part of how we've you know the Times that we'vebeen bought up in. So I just kind of wonder whether maybe older generationswho are still in the workforce and then more traditional businesses that don'thave a large emphasis or focus or use of digital are probably struggling withthe kind of reverse of that, so people are leaving because, because they're being expected to workfrom home and they can't or theyre struggling with it yeah. That's that'sanother really good point. It definitely is something that businessisneed support where they need to think about, and I think they' probablyhappeen a lot of business leaders up to this point, burying their head in thesand and just going wit. I can't I can't deal with that right now or Idon't have the the budget to deal with it or I don't you know, we don't needit, and now it's been thrust upon them. If we can learn to get this right andif businesses can really, you know harness the power of this and there'sjhus so much potential cool Rachel. Let's talk about your first way ofworking, then nen normal yeah. So I actually, I had had two and I justthought of a better one, so I'm replacing one of them with it. My other one was random acts ofkindness and how...

...you know: We've got it throughoutlockdown, and you know people struggling and wanting to connect withpeople trying to find different ways: random acs of kindness and from myperspective and from what I've seeand have increased, and you know the humanracis a fickle bunch. So I would really hate for that to decrease again or goaway again once we get into whatever this new normal phases post pandemic,so that was one of them, but I'm going to gon to park that I still think it'simportant. This is your sneaky way of gettingthree and in will yo like I was goingto talk about this thing that I've justtalked about, and now I'm going to talk about SOM Ano Point Tho. It's a good point,definitely talk about kindness at one point, because it is a sumperpower.Most prediction and point was really good. Is that actually the new normal?Whatever comes next after this and getting ready for that? It's all aboutfuture poving businesses, we've learned as a human race that we are not inlikecompletely untouchable. A flu virus can completely shut us down literally shutus down, so we should be extremely humbled by that and we should start having much morerobust businesses and leaders should be having much more robust plans forfuture proving their businesses in case these things happen because they willhappen, it's happened. So that's what I thinkthe new normal needs to take on board and businesses need to prepare for thefuture and and share that knowledge throughout the business as well. Itshouldn't be one techi person that takes responsibility, for you know thatkind of stuff. Everybody should take responsibility for it, and leadersshould take responsibility for making sure that people are trained andcomfortable and happy with those kind of situations. Yeah Yeah. That's that'sso important, and a lot of people have been saying withall of this that Oh nobody could have forseen this. No one could havepredicted it and that's you know probably true. You know I certainlywould never have in a million years thought that this is going to happen,and I can't imagine there's many people that did, but you you can prepare for the unexpectedand as a business led. You have a certain responsibility to try to dothat as much as possible and to be be prepared for anythingreally and and you're absolutely right. It can't just be one person becausethey might be the person who gets struck down by the deadly virus orattacked by zombies, and you know whatever and they're Goton and youdon't know. No one knows what's going on and also the whole organizationneeds to be, but into that vision of what you, no, where you're going andwhat your future looks like and what being prepared for the future lookslike I've beeninvolved in a lot of preparing business constituty planswhen you work in PLC corporations its a big thing, so t ere's, a lot ofclanning guys are in around that. But actually, when I think about it, Idon't know how many of those discussions were around. How do yousomething? Have everyone working remotnly, for example? I know it soundscrazy, but how do you paye for Zom being tige or Howdo you eveerdinlyvirus? Like I said, I think this is going to change that kind of businesscontinuity, panning, who Wen thinking you know how how companies coan operateand actually bigger than that. I think the kinds of businesses that are inexistence as well so out of great chaos, often comes great innovation and Ithink, there's going to be new kinds of innovations that come out of is as wellyeah. Definitely one of the things that I'm was thinking about a lot in termsof this conversation and in general, there's so much hubres around, like youknow our untouchability, because we're so advanced Weth, so technologicallyadvanced megically advanced, and I think we just we like this is one ofthe biggest lessons to learn. Is that we're not untouchable and, like yousaid at the beginning of the PODCAST Legra, it's a time to reset bute we'renot trying to get back to what we were before we shouldn't be because that led,you know, led to a US handling a crisis in not an ideal way and blame whoeveryou want for that.

I've got ie got my hed. Mydelsthat'Ubrtheaya Stack esclis that I'm gonna just work through over thenext twelve months, so not dominic comings but yeah. So I think yeah we need we'vebeen takin down a pig or two and we've probably needed it, and it's time toREC that definitely I'm on board. Okay, so mine first thought is probably goingto be nice. Surprise. Anybody who knows that my and Raciel and I also run agroup called Brianis to women which supports women to progress in thedigital sector. But my my thought is around gender equality and how how wecan support women better, because one thing that I'm very aware from havingrumber indoshwomen for five years from having a child of my own for seeing alot of women manage work and Chulker a you know, generally, all of the thingsthat come with with both those is the massive inequality in how women areexpected to manage the home and the child and their job. That's always beenthe case and it's always been a problem. This crisis has made that reallystarkly apparent and it's put a real pressure on a lot of women and Moyoumentioned idea about single mothers trying to cope at the moment. It's beenabsolutely horrendous. It's not been easier, don't think for anyone withchildren and I'm absolutely not for listening. WWORKING dads have beengoing through. I know there's a lot of DADS out. There, who'e been workingextremely hard to the cost. Th, their kids ont do their job, but I illsayread a horrifying number of stories about women having to give up theirjobs wind up their businesses, because their husbands just have refused well.Hattheir partners have refused to do their share of the chirl cat. So it's areal problem and there's there's a real issue. Now I worry about men being freed up to go back to worknow that you know thees, Tok, caravailable and women still beingstuck at home, trying to tryind to manage both as we go back to work. Weneed to make sure that it's fair, that everyone is accommodated thateveryone's getting the same support. We need to look at how we value domesticwork, how we cause we're now saying that child care isvital and child core workers can go back to work, yet they are some of thelowest paid. So we need to really look at how we value that domestic work andhow we make it available to support people to make sure that people who aretrying to have full time careers on also then tryingto do another full time job over. Looking Ou to Chilcren and miking afterhouse at this name time, the it doesn't always fol to women, so I know somereally good examples where families were that, isn't the case, but that'sexceptional, and you know I know about them because they're the sorts offriends people talk about, isn't it great how they do things? You know it'snot the norm, so I completely agree with you on Matt. I think itsfascinating the roles that were kind of ordered back to work first, so Nany'scleaners, etca think it's I a lot about who we governed by that that was deemedokay, ceras as well. Another big area, so notjust carers, woare paid unemployed as a carer. There are a lot of women whocare people in their families, so you'll often find that it's the femalemembers of the family that care for elderly relatives and things like thato there's a huge gender imbalance there. In all of those things you know, menwill be able to get after work easier and then you've got this two to thingwhere decisions are going to be made without women in the seat. At the tablethat women are tought so hard for is being lost. Absolutely absolutely. Ithink it's probably only for to mention that we're recording this on the dayafter the storybroke about dominant comings heading off to Duram to getsome childcare whenhestart Oyeah. You...

...know number tin of everoice statement,saying it's totally fine that he should go tigh. It's fine it'she travel to Mile Oy that they said it was the rightthing to do, for him to travel halfway across the country to go and findsomeone to look after his child, and I think that's really interesting and theway that we view responsibility, O caring for children, because it isworth nacing that a the time that he undertook Athaut, two hundred and sixtymile journey. According to the number ten statement, he wasn't ill, his wifewas ill, they say, and he was concerned that he might get it and thereforeheaded off to get his mom and his sister to look after his kid now. I know several parents hove had coronavirusboth of them and had to look after a child, because the government guidelinesaid that they had to, but I also find it very interesting that, at the pointthat his wife was quite unquite andcapacitated, he then thought. Well Ibetter go to my mom's then, because he couldn't possibly given that he wasn'tyet IL. He couldn't possibly be expected to look after his child. Hehad to travel two hundred an sixty miles to find another woman who wouldlook after his child and mathing that ws very telling that that is still thefeeling of a lot of men that it is the women's responsibility to care for achild, and I find it very interesting that Jacobrys Mog leat to his defenseto say that it was the right thing to do in order to care for child when hesays he's a father of six he's, never changed an Appi, so you know, I thinkwe really need to look at that other. You know how we define responsibilityfor a child if you both were responsible for creating that child.You are both responsible for caring for it. I cannot respond to your Lego becauseI'm so angry e getto stop talking about dommodit coming now and we're going tomove on, but I should for context. I just wanted to say that that ishappening in the backdrop of our lives right now and we're teeming. Let's mesiftly on Mo. Let's talk about one of your thougt yeah, so my other, my nextprediction is about kind of how people work. I think there's goingto be even more zero ous contractors, he workers FREELACS, whatever you wantto call it. It's basically people being ewer, doing a job without beingemployed by a company that pays them a salary and pays Om, sick pay and all ofthose things there was already a big credin towards this. I think there'sgoing to be Evin more of that and there's two sides to that. So, on theone hand of somebody who works in that way, it gives you a lot of freedom andflexibility, but I'm in the very luxurious position to be able to workthat way. It doesn't work for everybody. So feyou know again, I know and thosesingle MOMS Yo work in that way. You had some really stressful times wherethey didn't know. F, there was going to be selfemployed scheme, they stilldon't know if it's going to be extended any further, so it's been reallytraveling times, but it suits lots of companies to have a load of people thatthey just switch on and twitch off when it sees them and they're notresponsible for them. It's more trediction of what's going to happen, but my worry is it's going to put lotsof people in Hes, more precarious positions and that's going to haveimplications on Mental Health on homelessness on Homeownership, you know, there'sthere's a whole loa of things around it that are quite worrying and actually asomeone who works in at way. I guess it only really works if you're withsomebody who is like employed, because at least you know like there's somemoney there that can like pay the bill, so you can work in that way. You knowmyself and ther were both contractors. We, you know we were as as consultantame. We do. You know live quite precariouslifestyles, but we are very lucky that, where you know we're doing quite well,then I think you know we both hand good money and we bot have have partners youan good money. So it's you know, I'm...

...not saying I haven't been absolutely I'm trying think of puite way of sayingit terrified out of my mind, certainly when the Chrisis first started thinkingthat I was going to lose on my income and again, I've been incredibly luckythat I haven't and I've managed to to still earn enough to get by and to youneed to still be working during this time. So we've been quite lucky.There's a lot of people who are contractors consultants on zero,Aus Contracts. What are these sorts of more flexible arrangements that havelost all of their income over night and and ANC qualifying for support?Necessarily you w you haven't been able to get any help and IREA are in areally really tight financial situation now, and you know really worried aboutwhat happens. So it's a real issue for a lot of people. Universal basic incomewas ovaloof that because it would mean that there's always this underlyingincome that secures people's lives, no for the listters and also me, can youdescribe what universal basic income is yeah, IT'S BASICA! Well, okay, mylimited knowledge is going to be a hund Megy, but it's kind of about securingthe basic esercity to be able to live for people and therere a differentforms of universal, basically Incomon, how it could work. But basically it'ssaying that you will have certain things that everyone has insosiety sothat you can live. You don't need to worry about being on survive essentially, and thereare. There are different discussions around it. So I think it's Finland thatalso just basically eradicated homelessness by making sure they justgave some everybody somewhere to live and rady thinks that problem. There areother countries that have universily provided free childcare.That means that that problem goes away and the business case for that isproven by the countries that have done it. There are different forms ofuniversal basic income, but the the premise is that you give people the sort of necessities of life ar providedfor everybody, and then it means people can make different choices about whatthey do. So you have people thate, then decine to do to do caring the peoplegoing to healthcare and things like that, but other people ta decreativethings, so there are arguents around the fact thatyou know during this time. If we haden't had TV and film and books- and you know what all of our mental healthbeen like, if we had' hat those things- Oh iesity, those are essential thingsfor life as theyre essential for life as well. So if you have a universalbasic income, people have they have the freedom to do all of those things. Well,that's what it's about all perfect. That's that's really helpful awesomepetual time. So my second one is a bit involved and it's definitely come outof a kind of the personal experience I've had throughout this whole pandemic situation. You knowin the last couple of months so I've been on furlough for we fuck yeah. Fiveweeks so and next week I'm on furlough again-and I am Du to go back on the first of June- don't know whether that's goingto happen or not yet, but through that Furlouh, I I obviouslyhaven't been working in accordance with the government guidelines, so I'm doing much better than DOMINACrub right now, no commins, all of them all of them elligut. For legal reasons. I mustpoint out that domnic rub has not yet been found to break any of thegovernment. Gidline coming fon the other hand, so I haven't been working on my job, aDIGITA agency, but because I've watched the space because of brought digh towomen and because of my kind of film side, Hustle Work, I have beenextraordinarily busy and I've had to structure my days as if I am at work,Parentheseis Commons whatever and I you know, I've had a routine and aschedule. I've had to...

...figure out how to actually work on thethings, the new things that I'm making up my work, new, workday with and alsoworking remotely, and how all of the logistics of that work- and it's beenquite a large learning period. Like learningabout myself, it's been it's been, it's been amazing, but staying motivated, keeping a routine nd,having a schedule and being productive of producing work out of that time, andthat effort has been has required a lot of learning, and so I think in the new normal or the next normal orthe you know the next period following the pandemic, I think Similarl to mowhow we work is and should maybe more should change. So I've been reading abook called deep work by a guy called Cal Newport find it in all good bookstores. But you can't go there at the moment, so I'm not plunging Amazon. So sorry BASOS, but it's a great book. Bi Big Greenbooks are taking online orders. Yes Ne that sounds good, but yeah. So I'vebeen reading that and that has really helped with the kind of psychology.Even a physiology kind of side of deep works, deep, concentrated product,productive work, you know we it goes to how we are face with istructions likeall moments of the day, we're expected to y ourselves and other people torespond to and send emails immediately after we've got them to read them toalways be connected to have a presence on social media to be tweeting aboutstuff, to be constantly engaged in lots and lots of conversations and actuallythe work that we're paid to do kind of takes a back seat to all ofthose destructions and that's what counly book was like shallow work, sowe're just always shallow working, and he gives a few like processes and rituals and auctions forgetting into deep work and there's a couple of different ones. They've gotdifferent names. One of them is where you literally lock yourself away for aperiod of time, and you know you work and you're cut off from the world and there's a couple of other. The onethat I think I'm going to try out is the BIMODAL philosophy of deep work, whichis kind of separating out chunks of yourday, specifically to work deeply. Where you know you shut down your email,you shut down any kind of you know you tell the worldthat you're not available for two hours or three hours or a day at a time andyou're, much more productive and because you're much more productive,you're much happier. So yesterday, Friday, I've been working on podcast project of my own and I putsome of his principles into action in terms of deep work and shutting downall other distractions and going you know, taking myself off to a separateera of the house to work and honest to God, I was saying to Moran Legra. Itwas one of the most successful professional days of my life and Iwasn't even at my actual job. They might not want me back, but I have learnet so much from thisbroth. I haven't even viliged it yet so I think my kind of prediction or hopefor the next normal after the pandemic D. my kind of final point is, I think, that people need to engage andexplore all of the options for working deeply, because I, the book, explainsit, and I generally. I genuinely believe that it brings people a lotmore sense of satisfaction because you're producing stuff, that is ofhigher quality and you're, not a slave to red dots on your phone or thingspiking up on your email and you're,...

...actually prioritizing what is importantlike and you know, if you, if you like being organized priotizing, is reallygood fun if you're, if you're a nerd but yeah so that's M. I recommendeveryone should go and read that book. I haven't even finished it yet so nospoiler alerts but yeah deep work is the work of the future work. I think Ithink this comes in, I think to the kind of flexable working thing and theand the adjusting how we approach work, because there is a lot of work that wedo. That is just being busy for the sake of being busy and it is justrunning around checking emails. You know messaging people just to provethat you're working and doing stuff- and you know this idea that you're, I think it's part of the idea that youhave to be in your seat from nine tot five to prove that you're there andprove that you're working, because you know t e's some somehow we've got thisidea that we need to pay people to keep that seat warm and we need to paypeople to be rushing around checking emails and being that kind of thatpresenteism and that you need to be in a certain place from a certain time toanother time and do a certain amount of hours have long ween an advocate ofthires anyone anyone's listning ise worked in. One of my teams will knowthis that in sale. What proves your wore is, what you sell is the numbersyou bring in and how Elfen you again, anyones Din' work, F, R. We know,there's always a bell that you ring when you ploy deals. It's how ever youring that bell that counts and if you can do that and be finished by you, K,ow midday and then we all go to the PAB. You have done your job. Your job is tobring inso money, and you know, however, you do it whenever you do it doesn'tmatter. You know you don't care about, actually the construct, ofours and oneof those things, and I think it comes down to trust as well. How much youtrust your stuff and if you don't trust them, why did you hire them and whyaren't you supporting them better if you don't believe that they want to dotheir jobs? Why aren't you working with them to help them ant to deal theirjobs, but ultimately, what are you? What do you want them to do? What areyou paying them Todoy? So you know if you're, paying mo you're paying Har toget sales into the business, if you're paying me and Rachel you're paying usto do marketing strategy and put a really effective Morin trasses together,you know: What do you want out of that person? You don't you're not payingthem to be something emails or to be sitting in a chair you're. You knowwhat is the value that you're getting out of them? What is there was thereason that you're giving them the SADARY and it's to get these particularresults and get this particular product service back. So, if they're doing that by twelve o'clock,and then they sortin off to the pub or, if they're getting it done at. You knoweight o'clock in the evening and then having the whole morning off that'sgreat, because then they're working to the most efficient you're, getting thebest results ous to them, theyr, fresh and reguvenated, because they've hadtime off when they, when they were done and they've had time to relax andrecharge and come back and hit it the next day when theyr energy levels attheir best and ultimately way. Why do you care? You know there might becertain meetings that you need them to be in or certain key times that youneed hem to attend, and they obviously need to accomodate that. But beyondthat, why? Why do you care? What they're doing you know give give themthat time to do that deep work to really get into the substance of whatyou're paying for like it's, not salary, equals time. It's you're, payingsomeone for that expertise, experience knowledge all of that stuff abilitiesskills, you're paying for the value of them. Soif they're, the value isn't attributed to time spend because that would beridiculous. U Because you could just pay someone to literally sit in t eroom for seven and a half hours like that's not. That makes absolutely nosense at all. That is Tbat Shit, crazy. We pay salaries for yeah likeexperience, Gills time knowledge all of that kind of stuff. The value of that that person as anemployee to Your Business, so time...

...should just be taken out of theequasion completely. It should be about performance meeting, kivingexpectations, building businesses, contributing pick being a good teamworker. Being you know a kind team worker all of those like reallyactually valuable things, and then I guess you could have adiscussion on if someone can exceed expectations deliver what they need todeliver in three hours of a day. Do you then move the goal, posts and say ifyou can do that in three hours? Well, you've got another four and a halfhours like do the same again. So there's an argument there as well like,but you know then get into conversations about quality of life.Yeah and again, I would argue that you know the value is on the the thing thatthey're producing for you. So if you're getting you know if you've paid mode toget a certain number of sales in for you and she's got them in for you, thenshes delivered the value that you put on that that product. So that's job done, isn't it? You know if thatwas worth a certain amount of money to you and you've got that t en that'sgreat, and if you want more sales, then she might be happy for you to pay herthe same Mont again to do yea double that amount. But Y, U you know thevalue is in the number of sales sous produce. So you good. If you want thesame number sells again, you got ta pay the same again yeah and to your point, racial. What youdon't want to do is risk burning her out and getting actually half the levelof sales, because you've tried to overwork a SA. Maybe it's better tojust let her you know go to the public OPCRAT. Basically, just let us all goto the PUBIDO. You know which world leader has got this. It won't surpriseyou Oll A WE GESS it a go! OKAYTHE UICKEST way out of thisrecovery for anes EAN its to have a four day week. She's, like we need togive you more free times that they've got time to explore the country andrevive the tourist industry which isn't going to retois from other countries.Why not? Let people in our country have more time the researching pafor a fourday weeks and shorter working days is staggering and I don't know why so manybusinesses are just ignoring it. It makes no logical business sense at allof the research shows that you'll make more money and be more successful ifyou work es hours and actually that that's sort of talking about that kindof busyness, an busy work and shyly work, but brings me on to my final ythought, which is around my big Buck Parin the Maman, which I think Imentioned wot the last episode. Actually, when we talk about it,there's meetings, one thing that I think is really interesting: We've allbeen been kind of chatting about this for a while, which is what made me wanto to bring it up today, is the bringing all these meetings online with patformslike zoom and Microsoft teams- and you know many others are available, butit's really, I think, highlighting the big issues that thewer are with meethings, so one of the big ones is that it depends on how you have your systemset up, but for Mose people. It will be the case that the person on your screenis the person Yhou speaking. Certainly the person is highlighted is speaking and with bocs. Oft Teams e know thatonly only the first nine people will ever be visible. So if you're notsaying a lot, you drop off the screen completely zoom. You can only have a certainnumber of people visible at anyone time, even if you're on gallery view, so Iget quieter. People drop to the to the end, so we are in a situation where thepeople who shout the loudest and are the happiest interrupting people arethe ones Hou get most of the floor and that's always been ha case. But it'smuch more so now, because you physically can't see people if they're,not speaking so, there's a danger that you forget about them completely or youknow think that they're not contributing or not involved, and Ireally want us to get away from this culture of rewarding the people whosholl over everybody else and just you know, make themselves the loudest poce.So meetings are a stage for certain people, O pulm well, and they don't sueeveryone. Some people need to think...

...about the subject beforehand. Theycan't think on the spot and that's totally valid. Some people need tothink about afterwards and come back to you afterwards. Some people love thatstage of the meeting. You know it. Doesn't it doesn't suit everyone I getin? We need to come back to what are they about what you' trying to achieveagain? It is certain people that dominate them. I saw one of thecompanies con, of which one was thinking about Ting stats on the peoplethat get the stage the people actually get time during those, because I thinkit's fascinating. You can see a lot. I've been on lots of reasons where yousee people and you think they're not saying what they really think and sofor businesses you're missing out on some potentially fantasticcontributions. Just because that format doesn't suit everyone. It's down tobusiness leaders, I think, to to actually not reward that culture ofjust you know, being the personyo shouts the loudest, because you do youknow if you come out of a meeting and you've dominated and you've said themost get real. Pat On your back from your boss and Oh yeah, you were youknow you were really great about measing and it's like no. You wereterrible at that meeting because you just talked over everybody and no oneelse got a Likin. You know. A lot of people are quite cautious, N meetings about aboutspeaking up because, historically, they have not found that speaking up hasgone well for them. So there's a responsibility there for the leaders ofthe organization and the people who are running the meeting to make sure thateverybody gets to speak. I have been told to watch my tonebefore and I have when I wert in the corporation. I was offered coachingbecause it was proud that I need to listen to others more and just myvolume, and you know think about these things, and maybe people didn't likethe things I were saying so yeah. Definitely so that's am asimsome goodfeeter thought there an some ways that we can be restructuring businesses and readimagining the way that we do things as we move into the world after corona. Wenow have to pick teer of them to pit to afote. So does anybody have any views?I am actually going to make a bid for Rachel's point about deep work, becauseI think that actually leads really nicely into everything else. I thinkthat is what about a shift in how we look atwhat people's jobs actually are an what we actually want to get out of them,and I think that would alsoso help us to think about things like flexibleworking, think about the hours that we work think about pointless meetings, or you know betterstructured meetings and all er that so I'm going to advocate for that one yeah,I'm going to pick my own point as well. I'm gonnaigonnaagreewith that as welland Rael you'll be delighted to Abitdere that your other prediction, Ithink, actually rolls mine into it as well about remote working. I think.Actually it's about the sort of future proofing and work andit'. It's a bigpiece here about how we fetue Prov work. So I know Thi SOS win, but I think yourtwo predictions are baoclly. No money has changed hands in the Douaccept payments. If you'd like to do that, though, it's too late, you've just chosen. Mytwo already I want to. I want to argue with you for the sake of the PODCASTand for some sort of debate, but I have ide yeah. I think feture priefingactually can bring in so much of it because it then brings in you know,Zeroas contracts and things like that is yeah. I think we have to DecarRachel pisson inner. I really needed this win guys Rachel,the winner. I win Brthi Tis now in charge of the world,it's wil ee. Actually, I'm really happy with that Rachels anr, I'm uwit thatWen it mean had to pay between Rachel, Pesson and Barijohnssan. I thinkthere's no contest on I, who I'd rather have for anything. My first degreeshall be that everyone has to carry a light saver with them. Yeah some nowless on board with racial person...

...running Tig, Star Wars. Will it take for me to pushyou back to Borris Johnson? It's going to have to be a hell of a lot of styls.I got ta be honest. I think that yeah beaul be a world before I broke. Ithink you probably could break me, though. This is such a great outcome.Basically we're saying racfor shoul run the world, THAT'S WATI'M! So happy H,that's fantastic! It's almost like I planned it. This way say oropold on oursaction media channels is now. Will you elect racial as the leader of the WOT?Now, what Wat we're going to do is put both of those ideas out on our setiolmedia Hannels on a poll for you o to fight and tell us which one you thinkis the most important, so should it be businesses working on their futurepriefing and thinking more about how they prepare for crises, preparing forthe unexpected and ready for what life might throa at them, or is it aboutreshaping how people do their jobs and looking at letting people actually getdeep into the work that they do, rather than just being busy for the Sak ofbeing busy? So that is our pole right now on our sacial channels, which areat watch this spce to get involved and far and tell us what you think thanksvery much mor and Rachel for providing your valuable insights Ond, what normallooks like after the pandemic? Thank you everybody for listening. This hasbeen the reimagination at work podcast, and we will see you next time to talkabout as we move into this new normal how's it all going will see them. Ithat I dia a Fon.

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