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Episode 2: Getting Back to ‘Normal’: How's That Going to Work?!

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Hello and welcome to the reimagination at work podcast. This is a podcast where we seek to challenge all the assumptions about work in order to build a new and better landscape for everyone. This is the second episode of our three part series looking at the new normal following the coronavirus pandemic. Last time we looked at some predictions for the future post apocalypse, which you can check out and see how right we are. Spoiler alert. We're always very right. This week, as lookdown begins to ease, we're talking about getting back to normal. So how's that going to work? I'm your host for this week's episode. My name is Aleca Chapman and I'm one of the CO creators of which this space, a consultancy services that helps businesses to create more diverse and inclusive and therefore more powerful and successful workforces. I'm joined by my fellow watch this space co creators, Mocantelel and Rachel Pearson. How are you both doing? Good, hello, hello, thank yeah, good, I'm good. I've had a good week, which is nice. Yeah, I mean really good. Yeah, I know that sounds strange to be saying good in the strange world, but yeah, good. The definition of good, I think, has changed considerably. Now we're in the whole new world of what is good. Yeah, definitely. I think if you're feeling sane and krying of okay, then that's the defined, you know, the new definition of good, I think. Yeah, we're going to take our goods where we can get them. Yeah, absolutely, we need to right now. So that leads me neatly into talking about getting back to normal and whatever normal is now, because we have had to completely redefine what normal is. But things are starting to starting to move back in a more normal direction now. Look down to easing a little bit, some people are able to go back to work and some people are able to travel a little bit more to maybe do more things, go out a little bit more. So things are starting to move in a direction of what they were like before all this happens. So how do we go about getting back to normal? Are View, I think, or doth certainly my view, is that we shouldn't get back to normal. Normal was not working. Normal had a lot of problems and a lot of issues. So we've got a real chance now, as the world starts to reset itself, to redefine what normal is and build something new. As always on this podcast, everybody is going to make t suggestions for how they think things ought to go and at the end we will pick our favorite two and then we will put that to you lovely people via social media fe to vote on what the new definition of normal should look like. So, Mo let's start with you. So what is the new normal going to be? How is it going to work? So my first production and is like the obvious one, which is going to be more at working. What I mean by that is companies organizations that said it couldn't work to have people working remotely have had to. They've had to change to that and actually, for a lot of people it's been a positive experience because it's meant they can continue to operate from home. It's meant more flexibility. People of work as different hours to fit around their lifestyles. They've had to because of trial care. It's completely changed all of that. There are things we need to watch out for. So it hasn't been positive for everyone. So, for example, there's some single MOMS I know where. You know that it's been a nightmare, to be honest, for them. So hasn't been easy for everyone. Not Everybody has a space they can work in. Again, someone else I can think of that I know who doesn't have a like a space that they can work in in their home. So it's not like it's this Utopian thing, but there is inevitably going to be more about working now. There are implications of that too, because it will means that a lot of companies will think well, great, I can save costs now on office spaces. Don't need to do...

...that now because I'm just everyone working from home. But that means that then businesses really need to think about their culture, their company culture, and how that's going to work, because you could end up with loads of people just feeling really distracted and isolated. I say that someone myself who gets a lot of energy from being around people. So, if you know, for me it's been a real adjustment to do everything from home all of the time and not be able to bounce off ideas of people called things like that. So there's lots of implications around it, but I would say overall, it's going to happen. There is going to be more remote working. That's my first prediction. I think that's a really good point actually, that a lot of companies maybe have neglected to think about. You can't just shift your existing business and your existing culture exactly how it worked offline online and expect everything to work in the same way. It is a different way of doing things where you have a lot of remote workers and that takes a lot of thinking about in how your systems and your processes and your company culture are going to work. It's not a simple as she's going, Oh, we're just all going to chat on slack now and we have our meetings on zoom. There's more to think about than that. Definitely, it is interesting and I am wondering how many people out there have been pushed out of their jobs or lost jobs or, you know, felt they had to step out of careers because they wanted flexible working opportunities and we're told that they couldn't have them, that their business wouldn't accommodate flexible working. And now are sitting back and watching all those businesses take everything remote and have everybody remote working and how they feel about that, because there's definitely some people who were told that that absolutely couldn't happen. HMM, I wonder as well if the reverse is also the case. So for people who are not people and businesses, business, emphasis on the businesses. We are never even considered the working remotely and all of the kind of infrastructure and tech and learning and doing things in a different way that that takes. So we weren't prepared for having to do that. They didn't have like the knowledge or the skills or any of the tools to do that. Whether people have left jobs or feel like they're being pushed out of jobs or really struggling with their jobs because of that. In prepared, unprepared, in preparedness, one of those is a word. And they don't feel like they're being successful in their role anymore because of these new challenges of having to work remotely but the infrastructure not being there properly. There's lots of businesses that are. We work in digital roles and, you know, more relatively young still. So you know, all of this stuff is is kind of second nature to us because it's part of our jobs, part of how we've, you know, the Times that we've been brought up in. So I just kind of wonder whether maybe older generations who are still in the workforce and then more traditional businesses that don't have a large emphasis or focus or use of digital are probably struggling with the kind of reverse of that. So people are leaving because because they're being expected to work from home and they can't or they're struggling with it. Yeah, that's that's another really good point. It definitely is something that businesses need support, where they need to think about and I think the probably happened a lot of bit and leaders up to this point burying their head in the sand and just getting well, I can't, I can't deal with that right now, or I don't have the budget to deal with it, or I don't you know, we don't need it. And now it's been thrust upon them. If we can learn to get this right and if businesses can really, you know, harness the power of this and there's just so much potential. Cool, Rachel. Let's talk about your first way of working, the new normal. Yeah, so I actually I had had to and now just thought of a better one, so I'm replacing one of them with it. My other one was random acts of kindness and how, you know, we've...

...got it throughout lockdown and you know, people struggling and wanting to connect with people, trying to find different ways. Random acts of kindness from my perspective and from what I've seen, have increased. And you know, the human race is a fickle bunch, so I would really hate for that to decrease again or go away again once we get into whatever this new normal phases, post pandemic. So that was one of them, but I'm going to go to park that. I still think it's important. This is your sneaky way of getting three and in what you like. I was going to talk about this thing that I've just talked about and now I'm going to talk about something a good point. Now it's a good point. Definitely talk about kindness at one point, because it is a superpower. Most prediction and point was really good. Is that actually the new normal, whatever comes next after this, and and getting ready for that? It's all about future proofing businesses. We've learned as a human race that we are not, in like completely untouchable. A flu virus can completely shut us down, literally shut us down. So we should be extremely humbled by that and we should start having much more robust businesses and leaders should be having much more robust plans for future proofing their businesses in case these things happen, because they will happen. They it's happened. So that's what I think the new normal needs to take on board and businesses need to prepare for the future and and share that knowledge throughout the business as well. It shouldn't be one techy person that takes responsibility for, you know, that kind of stuff. Everybody should take responsibility for it and leaders should take responsibility for making sure that people are trained and comfortable and happy with them those kind of situations. Yeah, yeah, there's that's so important. And a lot of people have been saying with all of this that Oh, nobody could have foreseen this, no one could have predicted it, and that's, you know, probably true. You know, I certainly would never have been a million years thought that this is going to happen, and I can't imagine there's many people that did. But you you can prepare for the unexpected and as a business leader you have a certain responsibility to try to do that as much as possible and to be be prepared for anything really and, and you're absolutely right, it can't just be one person, because they might be the person he gets struck down by the deadly virus or attacked by zombies and you know whatever, and they're gone and you don't know, no one knows what's going on, and also the whole organization needs to be brought into that vision of what you know, where you're going and what your future looks like and what being prepared for the future looks like. I've been involved in a lot of preparing a business continuity plans. When you work in PLC corporations, it's a big thing, so's a lot of planning goes are in around there. Actually, when I think about it, I don't know how many of those discussions were around. How do you suddenly have everyone working remotely, for example? I know it sounds crazy, but how do you prayer for a Zombie attack or how do you have readily virus like I think this is going to change that kind of business continuity planning, forward thinking. You know how how companies going to operate. And actually, bigger than that, I think the kind of businesses that are in existence as well. So out of great chaos often comes great innovation, and I think it's there's going to be new kinds of innovasions that come out of it as well. Yeah, definitely think one of the things that I was thinking about a lot in terms of this conversation and in general there's so much hubris around, like, you know, our untouchability because we're so advanced, was so technologically advanced, medically advanced, and I think we just really like this is one of the biggest lessons to learn, is that we're not untouchable and, like you said at the beginning of the PODCAST, a Legra, it's a time to reset, like we're not trying to get back to you what we were before. We shouldn't be, because that led, you know, led to a US handling a crisis in not an ideal way. And blame whoever you want for that. I've got...

I've got might be my people, a list for another day, Idi a stuck squelist that I'm gonna just work through over the next twelve months, so that dominic clings. But yeah, so I think, yeah, we need we've been taken down a peg or two and we've probably needed it and it's time to Reaset. Definitely I'm on board. Okay, so my first thought is probably going to be necessaries to anybody who knows that my own Rachel, and I also run a group called brain digit to women, which supports women to progress in the digital sector. But my my thought is around gender equality and how how we can support women better, because one thing that I'm very aware from having run bright into women for five years, from having a child of my own, for seeing a lot of women manage work and child care you know generally all of the things that come with with both of those, is the massive inequality in how women are expected to manage the home and the child and their job. That's always been the case and it's always been a problem. This crisis has made that really starkly apparent and it's put a real pressure on a lot of women and more. You mentioned earlier about single mothers trying to cope at the moment. It's been absolutely horrendous. It's not been easier, I don't think, for anyone with children, and I'm absolutely not for listening what working dad's have been going through. I know there's a lot of DADS out there who've been working extremely hard to look after their kids unto their job, but I've also read a horrifying number of stories about women having to give up their jobs wind up their businesses because their husband's just have refused or that their partners have refused to do their share of the child cat so it's a real problem and there's there's a real issue. Now I worry about men being freed up to go back to work, now that you know there's truck care available, and women still being stuck at home trying to trying to manage both as we go back to work. We need to make sure that it's fair, that everyone is accommodated, that everyone's getting the same support. We need to look at how we value domestic work, how we because I'm we're now saying that childcare is vital and childcare workers can go back to work, yet they are some of the lowest paid. So we need to really look at how we value that domestic work and how we make it available to support people, to make sure that people who are trying to have full time careers on also then trying to do another full time job of looking after children and looking after our house at the name time. The it doesn't always feel to women's or I know some really good examples where families where that isn't the case. But that's exceptional and you know, I know about them because they're the sorts of friends people talk about. Isn't it great how they do things. You know it's not the norm. So I completely agree with you on that. I think it's fascinating the roles that were kind of ordered back to work first, so nanny's, cleaners, etc. I think it says a lot about who we're governed by that that was deemed okay. Cares as well, another big area. So not just care as were paid, like employed as a career. There are a lot of women who care for people in their families. So you'll often find that it's the female members of the family that care for elderly relatives and things like that. There's a huge gender imbalance there in all of those things. You know men will be able to get back to work easier. And then you've got this to tear thing where decisions are going to be made without women in the seat at the table. The women have thought so hard for is being lost. Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's probably only fair to mention that we're recording this on the day after the story broke about Dominic Cummings heading up to you, Duran, to get some child care when he started on that. Yeah, you know, number...

...ten of every statement saying it's totally fine that he should go study but it's right, it's fine, it's he's travel to smile. Yeah, that they said it was the right thing. Do you for him to travel halfway across the country and to go and find someone to look after his child. And I think that's really interesting and the way that we view responsibility of caring for children, because it is worth noting that at the time that he undertook that two hundred and sixty mile journey, according to the number ten statement, he wasn't ill. His wife was ill, they say, and he was concerned that he might get ill and therefore headed off to get his mum and his sister to look after his kid. Now, I know several parents you've had coronavirus, both of them, and had to look after a child because the government guideline said that they had to. But I also find it very interesting that at the point that his wife was, quote unquote, incapacitated, he then thought, well, I better go to my mum's then, because he couldn't possibly be given that he wasn't yet ill, he couldn't possibly be expected to look after his child. He had to travel two hundred sixty miles to find another woman who would look after his child and I think that's very telling that that is still the feeling of a lot of men, that it is the woman's responsibility to care for a child. And I find it very interesting that Jacob ru smog leapt to his defense to say that it was the right thing to do in order to care for a child, when he says he's a father of six, he's never changed a nappy. So, you know, I think we really need to look at that. You know how we define responsibility for a child? If you both were responsible for creating that child, you are both responsible for caring for it. I cannot respond to your logo because I'm so angry. I'm going to stop talking about them. It comings out and we're going to move on, but I should for context. I just wanted to say that that is happening at the backdrop of our lives right now and we are duming, and that's me siftly on my let's talk about one of your thought yeah, so my other my next prediction is about kind of how people work. I think there's going to be even more zero hours, contractors, gig workers, freelance, whatever you want to call it. It's basically people being people doing a job without being employed by a company that pays them a salary and pays and stick pay and all of those things. There was already a big trend towards this. I think there's going to be even more of that and there's two sides to that. So, on the one hand, of somebody who works in that way, it gives you a lot of freedom and flexibility, but I'm in the very luxurious position to be able to work that way. It doesn't work for everybody. So for you know again, I know and no single mums who work in that way. You had some really stressful times where they didn't know if there was going to be self employed scheme. They still don't know if it's going to be extended any further. So it's been really troubling times. But it suits lots of companies to have a load of people that they just switch on and switch off when it suits them and they're not responsible for them. It's my prediction of what's going to happen, but my worry is is it's going to put lots of people and even more precarious positions and that's going to have implications on Mental Health, on homelessness, on homeownership. You know, there's a there's a whole lot of things around it that are quite worrying and actually and somebody works in a way. I guess it only really works if you're with somebody who is like employed, because at at least you know, like there's some money, they're back and like pay the bill, so you can work in that way. You know, myself and they were both contractors. We and you know, we work as consultants and we do, you know, live quite Precari as lifestyles, but we are very lucky that we're, you know, we're doing quite well. Then, I think, you know, we both hand good money and we both have partners, you and good money. So it's you know, I'm not saying I haven't been absolutely I'm trying to...

...coplite way of saying it's a terrified out of my mind, certainly when the crisis first started, thinking that I was going to lose on my income. And Again I've been incredibly lucky that I haven't and I've managed to you to still learn enough to get by and you need to still be working during this time. So we've been quite lucky. There's a lot of people who are contractors, consultants on zero as contracts, all of those sorts of more flexible arrangements that have lost all of their income overnight and and aren't qualifying for support necessarily. You know, you haven't been able to get any help, and I we are in a really, really tight financial situation now and, you know, really worried about what happens. So it's a real issue for a lot of people. Universal basic income was of a lot of that because it would mean that there's always is underlying income that secures people's lives. Know, for the listeners and also me, can you describe what universal basic income is? Yeah, it's basic. Well, okay, my limited knowledge is going to be a undreild here, but it's kind of about to curing the basic necessity to be able to live for people, and there are different forms of universal basic income and how it could work, but basically it's saying that you will have certain things that everyone has a society, so that you can live, so you don't need to worry about being a survive essentially, and there aren't. There are different discussions around it. So I think it's Finland that also just basically eradicated homelessness by making sure they just gave some everybody somewhere to live and eradicated that problem. There are other countries that have universally provided free child care. That means that that problem goes away and the business case for that is proven by the countries that have done it. They are different forms of universal basic income, but the the premise is that you give people the sort of necessities of life are provided for everybody, and then it means people can make different choices about what they do. So you have people that then decide to do to do caring for people, going to healthcare and things like that, but other people that do creative things. So there are argue. It's around the fact that, you know, during this time, if we hadn't had TV and film and books and art, you know what would all of our mental health been like if we haven't had those things? So necessity, those are essential things for life as yeah, they're essential for life as well. So if you have a universal basic income, people have they have the freedom to do all of those things as well. That's what it's about. All perfect. That's that's really helpful. Awesome. Great your time. So my second one is a bit involved and it's definitely come out of a kind of the personal experience I've had throughout this whole pandemic situation, you know, in the last couple of months. So I've been on furlough for it will be fun. Yeah, five weeks so, and next week I'm on furlough again and I am due to go back on the first of June. Don't know whether that's going to happen or not yet. But through that furlough I I obviously haven't been working in accordance with the government guidelines. So I'm doing much better than Dominic Rab Right now. No commings, all of them. All of them all right, but for legal reasons I must point out that Dominic Rob has not yet been found to break any of the government guideline. Yeah, coming for the other hand, so I haven't been working on my job at a digital agency, but because of watch this space, because of Brightan digital women and because of my kind of film side Hustle work, I have been extraordinarily busy and I've had to structure my days as if I am at work, Parentheses, Commons, whatever, and I you know, I've had a routine and a schedule. I've had to figure out how to...

...actually work on the things, the new things that I'm making up my work new work day with and also working remotely and how all of the logistics of that work. And it's been quite a large learning period, like learning about myself, and it's been it's been, it's been amazing. But staying motivated, keeping a routine, having a schedule and being productive, producing work out of that time and the effort has been has required a lot of learning. And so I think in the new normal, or the next normal or the you know, the next period following the pandemic, I think I'm similar to Mo. How we work is and should maybe more should change. So I've been reading a book called deep work by a guy called CAL newport. Find it in all good book stores, but you can't go there at the moment. So I'm not plugging Amazon. So sorry, Baisos, but it's a great book. Big Green books are taking online orders. Yes, by that that sounds good, but yeah, so I've been reading that and that has really helped with the kind of psychology, even the physiology kind of side of deep works, a deep, concentrated productive, productive work. You know, we it goes through how we are faced with distractions. Like all moments of the day, we're expected to buy ourselves and other people, to respond to and send emails immediately after we've got them, to read them, to always be connected, to have a presence on social media, to be tweeting about stuff, to be constantly engaged in lots and lots of conversations, and actually the work that we're paid to do kind of takes a back seat to all of those distractions. And that's what caln new book calls like shallow work. So we're just always shallow working. And he gives a few like processes and rituals and options for getting into deep work and as there's a couple of different ones, they've got different names. One of them is where you literally lock yourself away for a period of time and you know, you work and your cut off from the world, and there's a couple of the the one that I think I'm going to try out is the bimodal philosophy of deep work, which is kind of separating out chunks of your day specifically to work deeply, where you know, you shut down your email, you shut down any kind of you know, you tell the world that you're not available for two hours or three hours or a day at a time and you're much more productive and because you're much more productive, you're much happier. So yesterday Friday, I've been working on a podcast project of my own and I put some of his principles into action in terms of deep work and shutting down all other distractions and going, you know, taking myself off to a separate area of the House to work. And honest to God, I was saying to Morow and Lego, it was one of the most successful professional days in my life and I wasn't even at my actual job. They might not want me back because but I have learned so much from this book I haven't even finished it yet. So I think my kind of prediction or hope for the next normal after the pandemic and my kind of final point is I think that people need to engage and explore all of the options for working deeply, because I the book explains it and I generally genuinely believe that it brings people a lot more sense of satisfaction because you're producing stuff that's of higher quality and you're not a slave to read dots on your phone or things peeing up on your email and you're actually...

...prioritizing what is important, like and you know, if you if you like being organized, prioritizing is really good fun if you're if you're a nerd. But yeah, so that's some I recommend everyone should go and read that book. I haven't even finished it yet, so no spoiler alerts. But yeah, deep work is the work of the future, work for I think. I think this comes in, I think, to the kind of flexible working thing and they're and the adjusting how we approach work, because there is a lot of work that we do that is just being busy for the sake of being busy and it is just running around checking emails, you know, messaging people, just to prove that you're working and doing stuff, and you need this idea that you're I think it's part of the idea that you have to be in your seat from nine hundred and twenty five to prove that you're there and prove that you're working, because you know there's some somehow we've got this idea that we need to pay people to keep that seat warm and we need to pay people to be rushing around checking emails and being that kind of that present he is mm and that you need to be in a certain place from a certain time to another time and do a certain amount of hours. You know, I've long been an advocate of this. Anyone anyways listening is and worked in one of my teams will know this that in sales, what proves your work is what you sell, is the numbers you bring in and how often you again, anyone Wy didn't work for me know it is always a bell you ring when you close deals. It's how often you ring a bowl accounts. And if you can do that and be finished by, you know, midday and then we all go to the pub, you have done your job. Your job is a real money and you know however you do it, whenever you do it doesn't latter. You know you don't care about actually the construct of hours and all of those things. And I think it comes down to trust as well. How much do you trust your staff? And if you don't trust them, why did you hire them and why aren't you supporting them better? If you don't believe that they want to do their jobs, why aren't you working with them to help them want to do their jobs? But ultimately, what are you? What do you want? Them to do. What are you paying them to do? So, you know, if you're paying Mo, you're paying her to get sales into the business. If you're paying me and Rachel, you're paying us to do marketing strategy and put a really effective marketing strategy together. You know, what do you want out of that person? You don't. You're not paying them to be sunny emails or to be sitting in a chair. You're you know, what is the value that you're getting out of them? What is that was the reason that you're giving them their salary, and it's to get these particular results and to get this particular product service back. So if they're doing that by twelve o'clock and then they sorting off to the pub, or if they're getting it done at, you know, eight o'clock in the evening and then having the whole morning off, that's great, because then they're working to their most efficient you're getting the best results out of them. They're fresh and rejuvenated because they've had time off when they when they were done and they've had time to relax and recharge and come back and hit it the next day when they're energy levels are their best and ultimately why do you care? You know, there might be certain meetings that you need them to be in or certain key times eating to attend, and they obviously need to accommodate that. But be on that. Why? Why do you care what they're doing? You know, give give them that time to do that deep work, to really get into the substance of what you're paying for. Like, it's not salary equals time, it's you're paying someone for that expertise, experience, knowledge, all of that stuff. Abilities, skills, you're paying for the value of them. So if they're the value isn't attributed to time spent, because that would be ridiculous. Could because you could just pay someone to literally sit in a room for seven and a half hours like that's not that makes absolutely no sense at all. That is batshit crazy. We pay salaries for, yeah, like the experienced skills, time, knowledge, all of that kind of stuff, the value of that that person as an employee to Your Business. So time should...

...just be taken out of the equation completely. It should be about performance, meeting keeping expectations, building businesses, contributing peep, being a good team worker, being, you know, a kind team worker, all of those like really actually valuable things. And then, I guess you could have a discussion on if someone can exceed expectations deliver what they need to deliver in three hours of a day, do you then move the goal posts and say, if you can do that in three hours, well you've got an other four and a half hours like do the same again. So there's an argument there as well, like. But you know, then get into conversations about quality of life. Yeah, and again I would argue that, you know, the value is on the the thing that they're producing for you. So if you're getting you know, if you've paid mode to get a certain number of sales in for you and she's got them in for you, then she's delivered the value that you put on that. That's product. So that's job done, isn't it? You know, if that was worth a certain amount of money to you and you've got that, then that's great. And if you want more sales, then she might be happy for you to pay her the same amount again to do the double that amount. But you know, the value is in the number of sales she's produced. So you could if you want the same number ceales again, you've got to pay the same again. Yeah, and to your point racial, what you don't want to do is is risk burning her out and getting actually half the level of sales because you've tried to over the work as so maybe it's better to just let her, you know, go to the public twelve club. Basically, just let's all go to the public. Do you know which world leader has got this? It won't surprise you. I'll let me guess. It's our girl. Okay, the quickest way out of this recovery for news it is to have a four day week. She's like we need to give people more free times, that they've got time to explore the country and drive the tourist industry, which isn't going to be tourist from other countries. Why not let people in our country have more time? The research and favor of four day weeks and shorter working days is staggering and I don't know why so many businesses are just ignoring it. It's it makes no logical business sense at all. Of the research shows that you'll make more money and be more successful if you work less hours and actually that that sort of talking about, that kind of busy nurse and busy work and shallow work but brings me on to my final thought, and which is around my big bug appare at the moment, which I think I mentioned on the last episode actually, when we talking about it. There's meetings. One thing that I think is really interesting, and we've all been been kind of chatting about this for a while, which is what made me want to bring it up today, is the bringing all those meetings online with platforms like Zoom and Microsoft teams, and you know, many others are available, but it's really, I think, highlighting the the big issues that there were are with meetings. So one of the big ones is that it depends on how you have your system set up, but for most people it will be the case that the person on your screen is the person who's speaking. Certainly the person who's highlighted is is speaking. And with bocsoft teams we know that only only the first nine people will ever be visible. So if you're not saying a lot, you drop off the screen completely. Zoom, you can only have a certain number of people visible at any one time, even if you're on gallery view. So I get quiet to people dropped to the to the end. So we are in a situation where the people who shout the loudest and the happiest interrupting people are the ones you get most of the floor, and that's always been the case, but it's much more so now because you physically can't see people if they're not speaking. So there's a dainty that you forget about them completely or, you know, think that they're not contributing or not involved, and I really want us get away from this culture of rewarding the people who shout over everybody else and just, you know, make themselves the loudest voice. So meetings are a stage for certain people to perform well and they don't sue everyone. Some people need to think about the subject beforehand.

They can't think on the spot, and that's totally valid. Some people need to think about afterwards and come back to you afterwards. Some people love that stage over the meeting. You know it doesn't. It doesn't suit everyone. I get in. We need to come back to what are they about? What you're trying to achieve? Again, it is such people that dominate them. I saw one of these companies, are can't with, which one was thinking about and doing stats on the people that get the stage, the people actually get a time doing those because I think it's fascinating. You can see a lot. I've been on lots of meetings where you see people and you think they're not saying what they really think, and so for businesses you're missing out on some potentially fantastic contributions just because that format doesn't suit everyone. It's down to business leaders, I think, to to actually not reward that culture of just, you know, being the person who shouts the loudest, because you do. You know, if you come out of a meeting and you've dominated and you've said the most, get repat on your back from your boss and I oh, yeah, you were really you were really great about meeting, and it's like no, you were terrible at that meeting because you just talked over everybody and no one else got to look in. You know, a lot of people are quite cautious in meetings about about speaking up because historically they have not found that speaking up has gone well for them. So there's a responsibility there for the leaders of the organization, in the people who are running the meeting to make sure that everybody gets to speak. I have been told to watch my tone before, and I have when I worked in corporation I was offered coaching because it was felt that I needed to listen to others more and and just my volume and, you know, think about losings and maybe people didn't like the things I was saying. So yeah, definitely. So that's Sam sent some good feet for thought. There in some ways that we can be restructuring businesses and read imagining the way that we do things as we move into the world after corona. We now have to you picked, hear them to put to a vote. So does anybody have any views? I am actually going to make a bid for Rachel's point about deep work, because I think that actually leads really nicely into everything else. I think that is what about a shift in how we look at what people's jobs actually are and what we actually want to get out of them, and I think that would also help us to think about things like flexible working, think about the hours that we work, think about pointless meetings or, you know, better structured meetings and all of that. So I'm going to advocate for that one. Yeah, I'm going to pick my own point as well. I'M gonna I'M gonna agree with that one as well. And Rachel, you'll be you'll be delighted to a bit to hear that and your other prediction, I think, actually rolls mine into it as well, about remote working. I think actually it's about this sort of future proofing of work. HMM, it's a it's a big piece here about how we future proof work. So I know this sounds weird, but I think your two predictions are bang on. Actually, no money has changed hands in the do you accept payments? If you would like to do that, though, it's too late. You've chosen my two. Or ever I want to. I want to argue with you for the sake of the PODCAST and for some sort of debate, but I have idea. Yeah, I think feature priefing actually can bring in so much of it, because it then brings in, you know, Zerah's contracts and things like that. Is Yeah, I think we have to declare Rachel Pisson. I'M gonna Rachel. I really needed this win, guys, and Rachel the winner. I win. Rachel is now in charge of the world. It's what it was actually, I'm really happy with that. Rachel's and Georgia. I'm a Bob with that. When it I mean it had to pick between Rachel Pierson and Boris Jns that I think there's no contest. I know who I'd rather have anything. My first degree shall be that everyone has to carry a lightsaber with them. Yes, I'm now less on board with Rachel Pierson running. I like much star wars. Would it take for me to...

...push you back to Boris Johnson? It's going to have to be a hell of a lot of star wars. I gotta be honest. I think that's yeah, be a be a while before a break. I think you probably could break me, though. It's such a great outcome. Basically, we're saying RACHELS run world as I'm so happy. That's fantastic. It's almost like I've planned it this way. So our polled on our social media channels is now. Will you elect Rachel as the leader of the web? Not? And what we're what we're going to do is put both of those ideas out on our social media channels on a pole for you to to vote and tell us which one you think is the most important. So should it be businesses working on the future, proofing and thinking more about how they prepare for crises and preparing for the unexpected and ready for what life might throw at them? Or is it about reshaping how people do their jobs and looking at letting people actually get deep into the work that they do rather than just being busy for the sake of being busy? So that is our pole right now on our social channels, which are at watch this spce. So get involved and vote and tell us what you think. Thanks very much, my own Rachel, for providing your valuable insights on what normal looks like after the pandemic. Thank you, everybody for listening. This has been the reimagination at work podcast and we will see you next time to talk about as we move into this new normal. How's it all going? We'll see them. I did add an ADM.

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