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Episode 5: Building a culture of psychological safety | Reimagination At Work

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Watch This Sp_ce co-founders, Mo and Allegra, speak with Brian Ballantyne about how to build a culture of psychological safety in the workplace. He draws on his own experience of being a senior manager at Amazon. 

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Hello, I'm welcome to the reimaginationat work WODCASS. This is the pocast where we try to challenge assumptionsand reemvisage the world of work to build a more increasive and happier wayof doing business. Re higst, I'm a LEGRA Chupman. I am joined by mypcreator Wuce space, my countrylell and we greedy pace this week to beduring bras special guest, pry and buttonside. I A fenu miniter at Amazon wher. He hasreospidity for Dibesity an incasion in the organization to Brian think he's somuch e joining it. It's NY pleasure to be here thanks, so much good, Tak withyou, both reunitey ASPI Ayeh. We all ma the endof the ASPI compises Shere, which was amazing and brinew. An Yo pick tereabout a topic that I'm really really interested in, because I wek my othermy other life. I work with MOMS as a business cachanentor to help them itsvery often women end up and having babies, an hom t, cheete, theyr jobs,and I naythe e talk, Qui and bright, indeed about harthers and an fatherhoodat work exactly yeah. So I put some block poststogether into a book called confessions for Working Farther, and this is reallyit's going to get men to lean in more at home, with child care and with thehousework to kind of help women get ahead and also to help tads kind of noenjoy that time with your kids 'cause they grow up so fast e might notalready thirteen and eleven and bedtime stories have long gone so yeah, it's aspecial part of your life and and don't spend a whole time at work at sometimein your family. Absolutely- and I I forget- he said it originally soappologis Wnot, attributing the quot property, but there was um quite aninteresting peace written recently somebody whossain. We cannot have fiftyfifty leadership with with women in the workplace. If we don't have men doinghe, fifty fifty at home as well as it's got to be that that combination ofeverybody, supposing each other on on both sides, absolutely somi, also as stearching each todayabout Brian, not relate toperined at Ala, because one of the things thateeven pe with me that I'm I'm really interested in is Um encouragingbusiness leaderst to talk about things that failso. Why Wai you in that'simportant? Why is it ileging failure, apestiing Etei, think failures am really important to consider 'causesoofter. We focus on success e and we focus on what's Goineg well and peoplewill speak up their systeming like a success, but often if it's a failure,sometimes thet can be fear of shame or fear of WHO's going to get blamed. Hemight lose their job when often like the FAL stands. The first attempt atlearning- and it's often some of the world's best inventions ar no failre E,didn't turn out how they're expected, but we came up with something new, butI think there's you know, there's this real stigma around failure and notwanting to admit it or not. Wanling to be the person who cause a problem andsometimes there's different kinds of falure like if you di, if you no, youdidn't, follow the right steps on something broke, then that's one kindof Fang, but if you took a risk and you innovated and you tried something andit didn't work, thin nat like afraid it should be encouraged N. I think somesome companies kind of do already have like no failure Friday or they kind oflike when they start to meet INM. They they'll say: Wa risks totally wentwrong this week and what what we learnd from it, a s to the learning such acritical part of that Yu, seen that in companies where theydo start meeting, for example, saying like what's Gong wrong this week, YeahWa talking to one of our managers Um in the? U S, and and in the months hefmeeting they will start with like what's what's failed, what risks kindof what experiments didn't go as we plane? What did we learne from it? I think it's quite rare. A lot of lotof managers won't do that and can't bring themselves to celebrate Saly butsomeof. The commine were enlightened ones, no kind of recognize it'simportant to do. This is Mana. Jo's got...

...no Chinese Horachage and I think Im,I'm seing in some of he teams, I'm in particularly in East Asia, whether it'sno China or Japan. There is you know, there's this, this idea of kind oflosing face and and it need to e kind of really Khoy delicately handled andbeing ok to kind of fail. I think in theangle, SAX and American companies.It's like you, fail pick yourself up, keep going, but I think there's youneed o peomore at more gently and and by celebratingfailure and saying it's Okkay in certain circumstances that you cankindof bring out the best in people it'sa. I said at the beginning that itwasn't. I wasn't going to make it about parenthed, but bu am because I J car,some Huan when you were talking. I was thinking 'cause I so I have a two yearold and watching her over the last couple of years. Obviously, you knowshe's learning he things at the time and she's constantly practicing anexperimenting and trying things out and you wouldn't ever you say to a baby. Olthey' got up to walk, they fell down, they failed, they must never trywalking over again or wo. See. That's part of the the experience isconstantly trying and I'm I'm just wondering when we sort ofunlearn thatthat idea of experimenting and when we start judging ourselves for faiting'cause I've never seen my daughter go. Oh Gosh, I try to me it idn work. Imust never try this ever again and she just does it again and get again untilshe she took is out so yeah. I just wondering when we sort of start tothink of ourselves badly for failing rather than thinking or I triedsomething I've learned from that I'll, try it again otally and Li e. When yousee like a toddler trying to walk, you don't think OA use tthis like they havemaster there and just give up on it. You know at some point: they're GOINNAknow most cases figure it out and get there and you kind of encourage, but yeIthas, you say with adults. Sometimes we think othat they're never going toget it or they're, never going to learn how to do that. Skill and we don't noit's it's the person kind of watching in Lik like in the encouragement, itkind of goes that fixed and growth mindsets shing. Some people have thiskind of fixed mindset where you know they think. Well, I'm I'm smart or I'mnot, and I know what I know but theres some love, growwith minset, who justthink I can learn and I can develop newskills, and I can be like that kind of that toddler trying to walk and if Ipractice it Enoug I'll get there. So I find that quite interesting. That ideaof growth and a fixed mindset e igesorry going hurry. No, I S. I wasjust going to say Ma this. This sitatian teeth to something T. I knowyoven been talking about re and Wev we've been Mike around, which is sot,be able to acknowledge wer. Your Co ar because W we've beentalking t about with businesses recently about Um, you know ths, therestruggles, particularly around diversity and whwere things. Alotobusiness has been really unwilling to odmit when they've got a problem and a she mars it. If you want to say alittle bit about about that and about kind of encouraging people to be a bitmore excepting of of them when they need to learn yeah so yeah S, something we've beentalking to lot companies about, because is one thing to Extep, then there's work to do. It isaoter to say actually er things fi look at ours. Aren't we great tit's a much harder thing toacknowledge, theres, a problem, and I think a lot of it comes down toactually sum taking the steps to acknowledge the Gar. So look at youralldiversity, Sytecx and actually say what they are and acknowledge that there's aproblem, it's so much what one is to do, thate and then say what you're doingthrough adressn and what things you're working on and it sa Erythings fi lookat uss we're great, and I know myself o having work in and Devel Te companieswhere and not that diverse, that I will often get asked to be in Potos ofthings and for wherever it is alsocialmediat past, and it's like that.Stork fixing the problem, that's just papering over the issue and pretendingit's not there. So it's like it's about companies actually being honest enoughto talk about these things and and actually say what they're going to doabout them. Yeah. I totally agree, and it reminds me yesterday, someone foughtme an article from x university that done this research on companies. Ithink it was like in veternary kind of companies n, where whether people weremore likely to say there wasn't a pagup. They were more likely to be propagated,an that paygup and paying women less. So I don' know whether it's apsychological thing, let people just...

...know C- is cogrative distnance orwhatever it is, but you know people who think it's the more likely. You are tothink it's. Okay and things are fair, you're, probably going to be actually opart of the no discrimination and that's n. That plays, I mean an example.You talked about we're asking you to be in Phootos, it's it's, it's pretty kindof conscious and deliberowhat they're doing but yeah it is kindof funny Oothe people, don't don't see a problem and whether that's no deliberate orit's it's a psychological safety mechanism. I don't know why. I think,there's a lot of psychology around people, not admitting it. I don't know what I thingthere's lot toexplore. There yeah that's, really interesting, actually, N, so we've justbeen doing some research with businesses in Ra claria talking aboutlestne and one thing that wee found realy interesting, pretty similar towhat you were just saying. He we asked people to write how diverse theirorganization was out of turn and all the people who said it was. You knowseven, eight, nine out of ten were Alle in the leadshit team and all the peoplewho were more genia were all goring up, really low its kind of giving tos andthrees and Pul so that ', I think, a similar thing of the leadership team orsomehow thinking yeah w'we're, bridiant, everything's Great Werey, happy! U, on D, do they rything that or they justtryng to tell themselves thetre doing a really good job or try again, notwanting to admit any sort of senseofe failure that they ave allowed a gap tohappen? Yeah, I don't know you no E, Inteesiniself protective or what or whether it's it's just no willful ignorance, yeah, Idon't know I mean, runs through the mkinzi study, Um Theyn on on women, and I think theyasked it as America like one in ten. If you have one woman, no ten man is thatof diversity. Nd, I think ha half of American ten thought it was, but athird of American Mon also thought it was so yeah. I guess now, as a society, we'vewe've been N socialized a certain no amount of diversity, but I think yeahin the situation. You said when people are in power and they got the chance todo something about it. And now I see that in some big companies I don't understand what it is, whetherit's just whethere it is kind of willful or they can't bring themselvesto accept it that Um Althou'he jus's not interested Ir. They don't want toopen up their bok. I don't know, what's going on Yeah Soow, I we. We know that peoplestruggle Soma, that they've got itsees hen Ma what they perceived. Of that. Ireally hate the word fail. I've. I've got a real issue with it, because I D, unless, unless you you know dolied oryou know, killed somebody the prices of whatever you done, I onthing thatanything is everfalure. I think its GIS constantly, you know you're always, and you know re reimagining e want oveaboulead. What you're doing ofis constantly avolbing as constantlygrowing is constantly changing. So I don't really. You know I really kind ofjustlike the word failure, because it sounds so fine althat that STA it nowis o wrong and it's over and but we are afraid of perceived failures were we'reafraid of the steeming liketha things have gone wrong, so I wonder how can wego about crasing, an environment where people feel safer to talk about failurewhere they feel more comfortable tothe discuss that that idea? Yes, I guess o speaking about thefailure, is one part of Ho psychological safety, Um kindother aspect, aspects ofpsychological safety ar being able to speak up. So if you see something, no,if you disagree with someone's Pinion or no, you see something bad happeningthis just that ability to speak up and and not far kind of no retaliation ornot far, you're gonna be shut down. I think that's! No keepon ofpsychological safety and also another part, is actually that you'rein a in a place where someone actually cares about you- and I mean thosearethe three keeplers of psychological safety. You could be an organization,and actually you might feel that no one...

...cares about you. You don't care aboutTan, so that's not going to feel like a very kind of safe place and I thinkparticularly, is aget in to dimensions, diversity, pop re, marginalized, noworking in Thesan, AL whites o an all male kind of no workplayers. You may not feel you could bring yourauthentic theself to work and I think, even on, like these kind of zoom calls,I've got no colleagues there, African American women and n they they're,starting to kind of embrace wearing their head, scarfs ther're wearing likeno more aufensic clothes. And not is it's going to look corporate enough,because this is who they are and Knowi it' its great to see people staring toexpress themselves, whereas for the other people who no wouldn't wouldn'twant to express themselves authentically for fear of n what wouldhappen in Thai particular culture, so Um Yeah? Those are just some examplesof hopsycholicical safety, N ind of playout the fearless organization's agreat book on this top Hoo. That's really interesting! Actually, with withhalthings out at the moment and everyone's doing everything on zoo. Youthink people feel more comfortable to to be themselves and be opened becauseTheyre sigt in their own house, they're at home, they're, not they're, not inthe corporate environment they're in their space. They feel a bit more kindof confident in their ow home and eery rons beanbend on the person 'causethere's some people who are just they are it's kind of Howmucyo Dove Taillike with Y R, with your workself and you're a homeself, and some people areporaly exactly the same person at home. If they are, you know working if one oftheir kids jumps on their lap or something happens. They just toallycall with it. ECAUSE othey could comes into the office or something where somepeople might have. You know have a work porsoin and en a home Persoa, which isvery different, and I imagine that's prottly, going to cause a lot ofstressfol people trying to kind of balance and if Eing those worlds arekind of invading on each other, um where they might want to see ou, noincredibly kind of polished and on the ball af work. But then it's going tomake him a Ho and more vice verthsa. So I think it's really going to testpeople on on realizing how important is to kind ofressname th your true identity, whether you'reat work or at home, because it's you know it's all kind of mixed up. Now, that's really interesting, and so, ifanyone is listening, who is thinking? Ok, this Waso Brillian and I reallywant t to create a culture M in my business where people can talk aboutfailure and they can't BEA CP and they compete breeb themselves andocomfortable Um, but they they acknowledge in line with you, they bingonest, O failure, a wer incursions to be. They acknowledge that theyerereally far from that at the moment, as Ra a boy SHEU can give them on on howthey consider Therbo soing to fill bat that SENSI WIC AI, an that culture asbea to speak, open M, I'm not an exgor on ther e e, give acouple of examples so m. sometimes it needs to come from the top a I thinkwhen, when senior people can roll models nerability and how they ethey've made mistakes or or had no spoken, orp or Um, you know, and that kind of sets amessage to other people as well. So, for example, the company work an Amazon.If it's a technical I or a failure O don't now that would Um T. I have to gothrough correct of air process where they um e SA. They crashed wholewebsite which happened really recently it w someone. There was somemone whohad to go and explain what happened, and you have to do this thing calledCorrection Ebera and there's a process called five wise wher. You ask why fivetime, why is t a website crashed because thi? Why did that happen? Whydid that happen and then eventually get to kind of re calls, but Kno I's gonntbe quite groeling for people, especially if they're quite junioor anda friend of mine was saying that no when, when she was doing this- and itwasn't her in this case, but just to give an example Um she ready tented. Ithe meeting were going through Al the technical issues that happened and, atthe end the M senior man in room said. Let me tell yo about my first. It'scalled the Savjane or the first thing I broke and then evert some of the Tingoleaders around the room and just talked about o the biggest mistake, technicalerror or the worst catasteris that had happened that they cause and they justreally lifted the mood, and they just said this is a safe place like no just it it's okay, it's a kind of things togo wrong. Sometimes o think that's a...

...great way that if senior leaders can Cto be vulnerable, I must want to say that now, sometimes how so as p,especially in the covno situation, where Locke down at home, I'm seeingsome leaders ndofsending very open messages about it. Personal Challenges,they're facing at home and o show, is kind of empathy and compassion toworkers who who are struggling when they've got small kids or Thego. Nopeople they're carrying for or the conditions aren't great in where theyare all Theyr, sovering suffering, Fr, grief or or other things are going on n. Some of those messages can be reallypowerful because people are just being vulnerable and- and you kind of seethem as a human and they're saying it's okay, to Um. To be honest about some of these thingsthat are affecting you an not just to kind of keep a a smile on when thingsare really Kindo, anxious, so yeah t those are examples where I've seen itcoming from from the top really about how to set the tone on on being vulnerable and no Cran safety. N examplive of people sharing fere justreminded me, Um, so sweet its going to sound like Yotell you othing y I'vebeen roding horses since I was really young and it was the typical obsessothorses go. I Still An- and I remember when I was first leading toride when I was Bel an six years old. I as you do when you're leating tride andthe Um the instructor that I had s. It came over to me, uch Hos, Akay, andthen she said to me: You'R, not a proper rider until you've fallen offten times het. Wonderful enough, O the tewn time, then you'll be a properwrider and I acs that it sounsa simple concepeetment that mades such a hugedifference to me then ecause. I was like right. Okay, I'm attempt to theway there now and thin the next I mus I loff. I didn't think I goderful enoughagain. I thought but they'r Clac Er to BAA proforidy now and it actually oknow made something really positive about them and I actually take Thin Co.Ver made it to ten. In the end, my go o of Rider but Um. You know it made thatwhole earning experience so much more positive because it wasn't this kind ofterrible thing. It was progress totally. I haven't ridden a horsebefore I'm vory bit scared to do that. But I guess iice skating like when thefrozen movies came out. My kids were ints. We got DRIG diskating, I've neverdone it before and Yor there and all these kids kin kind of wizzeaound youand Iwas suffling along and I didn't Da. I go fast, I thout or if I fall over,if one of the Blay goes an my fingers off mango have these nightMarescenarios. But then you know, after you kind of go a bit faster w and youfall over and ything. Well, that was okay y! U Pick yourself up and you justkind of unness you're going to push it steff to the point of falling overyou're, not really progressing, and maybe that's to with horsewriting aswell or or with being in the workplace and an I it's okay and it's nice tohave someone there to kind of help. Pick you OPAN and and say it's okay. Definitely he tolk a little bit aboutabout kind of Ou, know, meetings and and the whole kind of space there forpeople being talking open about failures, n nd things like that weae onMISB, costaely being apot of he thing with methings, because w Wer, Taner, obsessed them andactually ma I'm going to. Let you explain why why we're obpessivemeetings, but we don't feel like Theyre Ira Platform, necessarily yeah, thinkwe're actually obsessed with not telling me things and there's thisculture and and Hee OTS Te Corporation, the the culture there is even more sothan T's. All the businesses o you're in meetings constantly and you're,always going to be in a meeting and all decisions really Amazin meetings, andit's all about that and then kind of likeastage, where certain peopleperform well and Gete to Berfore Wen, get the floor and O eople don't and itdoesn't work for everyone. Some people need information beforehand and they tothink about it. Mayde overney other people need to think about what theiridea is for a few days afterwards and come back to you. You know some peoplemight have the greatest idea for the greatest product in the world. That'sgoing to make the company millions, but that meeting didn't work for them andthey didn't get to have their say so yeah wewere on a bitomission to get toget this conversation going about how we can do things differently and H, howyou make decisions differently, they're,...

...really interested to hear what youthink about that Rian D. I hate methings as well. I agree it's it'skind of it is its artificial stage. That said, maybe because a lot ofleaders might be extraverts, for example, and then they are going toenergoimainy peol around Hem, but it is artificial stage, and- and you knowthat, because in the meeting it's really important like did you y tsomeon, you say and you go to Interjackson and absoutelyt. No onecares and it's like well hold on a minute. You said it was important. Ohyeah, like theres, no follow up soft R N O it's just. It's just how you knowpresent yourself an I see this, particularly with no Alfamen, sometimesas a generalization, Um yeah, it's it can be a total stage, andsometimes you have these recurring meetings, and you know people who areactually gotta get work done. Sometimes e prefer to work on their own or Onet abit quiet time to kind of no proces things yeah, it just doesn't work andit just. It feels like you're, not getting your work done, whereas peoplethat they see that as their work, that's M, so you feel e back Ttmesewhen they actually get to work. If it's like an intrusion you'r having to kindof show up, you not Um, so I think, I'm I say notal lot of meetings or like U Um often people are over invitade likepeople are tpuplicated. You don't need to be in EFOR me working with Seattletime zones. I don't want to be like late in the evening on these meetningsthat I need to be out Um, but there's a lot of kind of bullying. Sometimes Iseem director Saint to collings, Whit, 't you there is, but You'e gotta bethere and like there's no reason for them to be there um it becomes thiskind of present presenceism kind of forcing andoattention theyah s yeah. Sometimes sometimes ey can gowell with the right group of people, but maybe that's not necessarly ameeting. It's just you know, thee somehing needs to get done and it'skind, creative and you know it's like a brain storm or it's a workshop orsomething like that, but just meetings yeah, it's kind of boring as I used to work for a comedy that was ona huge site, a big manufacturing company and my diary would be jam. PatAn meetings like me, MES Tha, MEA es no spase ime at all, ' be running aroundall over the place. Stasha O roll as gas to be able to get O metings inTONIGMT, because then e on this sin and ther's the next one over there and fiveminutes how get there and then onr someone would stop you talk to you.You're, like O co, Oshe, always nied to do exactly what you're talking aboutBryan started to say, nose, meetings and just ow ening to be at that one,because I think there is this thing of overinviting people and then it's like.If, if you're not there, you will comment and Youon you not being in themeting and it's Kindof like th doing meetings becomes the Jow Ra andactually doing the job eah yeah go. One hundred percent relate towhat you were utsaying bright about L K YC when I um Beni used to be I'mgangful employes before for en offer my n. That was what I Olda Oo Doing: WisTank to meet aning you can out if you're lucky and it gives meeting youcome out of it with actions with the last good meetings. You don't come outwith an o. Why was I here? If you come out the meeting with actions I B WellI've. Now I've had a full day of meetings. I've had all these actionswhen, on my space to implement them, entertain these things potally. Iwonder if I think people induct boutusing moo go back tobout meetingfor that that becomes almostas, astatus Tembl, I'm so busy, I'm in all thesemeetings, but actually it you say that becomes your job, then, is just going oall these meetings. Your job is not actually doing any of your work e tame out at Bran. How we get affecttat, AE and a stuff ever be during Yor is one othe thing and then in themeetings do you see people with the latops of ther phones and not you'relistning to what's go in the Med time? I hate that yeah. You thought on better ways tohave discussions, make decisions in companies yeah it'sinteresting, it's interestingnow in this Kindof cove lock down I'm seeing different responses like peopleare realizing. Actually a lot of meeincould have just been an email, andsome meetings are getting cancelled. 'cause people realized didn't have tohavef them Miko for some of the catchuse I was having Weejusti've said:Come ejus cancelled, Hem, but then...

...there's other people whove said likeAmazons, quite an emale culture, so everything's usually done not eveanyway, but Um. SOMEMOLE HA SAI like no t et uded to just sdrop, by someone'sdesk cme Mer to con o esole things quickly. That way, now hot becomes anemails, everything's kind of it's Har, going for meating to an email, rtolking by someone cash, which is an now. You know what it's like: working,Amas, andwhere, everything's, just email overload and yeah. I don't know- I mean there',there's recurring kind of meetings that people have and I think it's, whetherit's a state of seeing or people are under pressure Um. So I guess we we're finding out now weawe' like now eone having a ln calendar and sayingwhat do really need. whate really need to attend, because Yo know you get zoomfatigue and o you got other things you're trying to do. You got to knowfee your kids or do other things kind of going n in your life and you don'tHa to be singing in in front of the laptop all day M and you gon Ta kind ofdeliver. It tolive a results as well and there's not that kind of presenthere is them. I think when ever one's in Tyou offface, you can say oh you'renot going to the meeting and where, when we're on video screens I's, not asmuch kind of no paranoir or no pears kind of monitoring each other, so tit'sbeen been quite a good time for flex for working and for, if offlexibly notgoing to meetings either Um yeah, I mean I guess I have some sometips. Don't they I mean t this inclusive kind of meeting tips,particuarlywhen the people diling in kind of remotely to make sure we wereconscious of everyone in a meeting kind of no not interrupting people, and I Isee you like an international meetings that you'll, especially in a biggergroup, youll, have certain personalities, dominating others. Ho'llhave ofte Mobe the extraverts from certain cultures. Um Say the Americasor something um dominating kind of loudly, a meeting and people from Chinaor Japan, not saying anything, breay ROOTF for them to interrupt, and youmay see gender and of parallels and some of that as well so yeah. I thinkit's boin be getting Ra from the stage and having smarl smaller, break coutsand like who do we really need to solve this problem and m having spontaneous kind of and a video chat or kind of? No, wehave a lot of working documents. Um Wpeople, Co. L like like Google, docksthat we have our inversion. People can just kind of work on something so um yeah. I don't know what the solution is, but u'm me we doan Amazon. IS WE UM? We do a our reading in the meetings and sometimesyou other companies have meetings and there's like a preread. You gotta magically attend the meetings and kindof read these documents, whereas we make time in our meetings to read thedocument so often for the first half an hour or even longer an Awas. A meetingYoud be eer one to be reading in silence. Someone would have prepared adocument, kind of thought out, T thedata and the arguments, and everyonewill have a chance to kind of read that. But then you kind of discuss that so atleast you're not wasting time. Everyon pretending, they've preread, somethingUm, but even that, like sometimes themeetings as go a lot of people there and we have weekly business reviews,menty business reviews, colly business views got planniing, we got all sortsof things, you know kindo going on and I guess it's just and not notcuplicating with colleagues, maybe just kind of dividing things up and like Hous to be there, and why is this whe? We need to be there anywhere like.Sometimes we go to meeting s because we're helping other people with theirgoals. What about our goals? Sothen a something I did? I was Asuuctanto,always helping everyone else, dough their goals, but now kind of rebalancestairs. I know Lus protose my own goals and you know I'm not responsible fortheir disappointments. If I say no, that's great. I like Onot Santo at andI think M tere's- definitely been a ship. IThin't mean it with en force pudently now to reavaluate, O woul do everything,because you can't call a meeting every you know hour now. You've gotta you'vegot Ta thing differently about how you do things and then we're enlly, hopingthat we're going to come out of old of this with a nee way of doing things,because we've been kind of forced to think a bit differently, rather thanjust doing meetings, because we've always done meetings and and havingthose same people dominating the conversation. B'cause they've alwaysdominated the conversation, there's a a chance now straightn ou a bet morehopefully ly. I saw one of the software companiesa which one was M. talking about huting a feature that you could record themouttime people speak and then do some...

...analystics on that. That would befascinating to see. ECAUSE I've certainly been into meetings wherethere's lots of silent people and two or three tht dominating theconversations that'd be interesting to see and Wi guess the same. Similartheme interesting to see what other callameration tools come out of this tohelp people be creative and come up with decisions and ideas, because I'msure there's been lots of different ways. People have been doing thingswhether it's lack or google, drogs or other clever things that allow peopleto share ideas and collaborate be interesting to see what comes outaround y. You were talking by that that the said documents e the Amazon and m that must give them Yo know give people again. Fo Hatbigo, sycogical safty givepeople much more confedence being able to be more free.To be honest, if you ER inputting to a document noone's looking at you,noone's washing you, you can just kind of put your thoughts down or Adea anthat. That must be a safer way of contributing and not feeling quite zounder the microscope that you are in meeting yeah exactly 'cause, sometimes in ameeting. It's funny that moment to kind of speak up, and then you, you worridOwa what someon's going to say about it or if you're going to get no Gonto gethurt or no oer saying so. You might get talked over by a certain personalitesand document, and I see Lik actually in invideo meetings as well like there be people who are comfortable having thekind of h talking, but then you'll have have like a kind of stuff meeting in inthe chat going on cafs I find sometimes Li. I've gotsomething to say, but I liy can't get a word in and so Il Justie so forget hiswas putting it in the char and in sometimes people say. Oh brimes made acomment. Let's talk about t, sometimes people would just carry on and thensomeone else replied to you. So youl have the introverts in the char and theextroverts on the video. Now you can kind re some kind of like kind ofcrossover, but it's at least everyone going to gets to contribute and discusswhether that's on h, the chowr on the video thing, but it's kind of U Yeah.It's interesting, sometimes kind of how this all plays our that iseayinteresting. Actually, the TAT can be more longer lasting because, if Youifyou're, preserving thet e saving them people, the reference tsat back and belike. Oh remember what Bain put in the chat and actually whatever ththesoslightly louder person saying in the video might have been forgotten. Yeah totally and t e. The team meetingsis nother thing as well. I always dreado that in my career, when you gotlike a tea meeting, a then eryone goes around and everyone's got to like talkfor two minutes, but what thy're they're doing and you're not listeningto everyone else. You just bsaly penning what you're going to say suchawastey time ye a yeah. I don't know really answeris but yeah. Don't doanymore. H, t wea H that a themanfand meetings and sai there's going to bedifferent ways of doing things just for the next week can see what happenedyeah. Sometimes I con INSACEO Mensday. We we try and say no meetings. Peoplecan attend the events or you know for June teenth. In the U S. recently there was a note from Mossieven like this new LE's cancelor meetings and spend it kind of day oflearning things so, but why not just do that every day like wise meetings, thedefault yeah and as he sayit's the stagepeoplelike peo ere like performing and that's how they like kind of expressingit ostron or getting their burs or fiing, it t they're, powerful anddominating others we're just like talking. I don't know what it is butyeah I do wit o agreed on that a yeah sa that ooomythings Thatga. I only Yo mentioned brainstorm Pan Iuse wit an and EES somewon whe works, N and creative and injustries. I will saythat they are really varibable when youyones get OA GA as many onts on Ritideas and bring people together and having people to Baance Elf. But Ithink that becomes a different thing, because then you are bouncing off eachother and Youre responding to one and other stores, you're, not on that stageperforming you're. Actually listening to people's ideas. Does my little SI P to keep Keebra sorsere importen. The rest of meetings can go inte, then one time it might seem we did ginstormsso like no aft, afterward we'd have a couple of grasses Jinantoni and we havesome o best ideas, then so yeah so brainstorms jinstorms the were O erFavoran. So I was a neighbor. Well, we...

...re- I I am I Wen to school in agency inLondon, and we had M as as tradition with all the stragescies. Wehad preday drinks, but four ifuckin a Friday, but we didn't finish until six,so they they wouldwe, allow or of this massive amount of alcohol and I'm notyo a huge amount of alcohol plasa with drinks and snacks, nd and trees andstuff. Then we we were still expected to carry on working for the next twohours and you know afte kind of basically like a bowl of wine age, andso we wer awasuse to make sure that we'd go otev. Our work done ats e kindof anything that impoved going on to client social media patform school,anything that was you know, technical incoarson. It was done byfour o'clock and then the last to hours. On afreday would be creative,brainstorms would be coming up with ideas and plans for f the next week andgenuinely was when we had our best ideas, because we w and ie again youknow your inibitions Alowi Youl Eree Bout, wevone, Gon, ten Yo happyhome outwith runs my dares and and then es te bod on that s that expectation to work like atcertain time. I think that's changing now that we'r kind of we're more vexinwhen we are actually working, but no Ian Youd still have this culturalexpectation to work to six o'clock, which would be R, no ridiculous,because you're probably Gong to make a mistake. They have to kind of pick upover the weekend and kind of you know: Salver an yeah. It's funny t we culdKinda Gothis like nine to five nine ty, six kind of mentality, which is againthat's being challenged now as well, spetical Workin in a global toons,where no, my nine to five doesn't make sense working with Seattle becausethey're, you know half aday away from me, so se having more kind ofproactivity and how we managed. Now, what we get done, not just when wereonline yeah, definitely 'cause it's about it's about getting the task ofthe Work Don not about the hours he sach at a desk and I definitely think that'as going tochange. I hope that stays anyway, that people are getting their work done,they're just doing it in different ways of different times, yeah yeah totally,which is definitely me sircing back to where we started a better thing forworking parents because becomes ms less than a bell or wll. I go make my homelifefaye around my work and and suddenly we're thinking, they're ableto fit the work around home and actually, if they need to go- and youknow the clost of their heads or you know, pick the trials up from fromschool or you know change muppies or whatever. Suddenly you can say that,and you can step out and you can ando these things and you can come backandto your work, laser and, and it's I think, it's much healthier way ofworking the Theesensi. You know Adaptesan Madour Life Yeah. I think people find a challengingsomethine. They went to Stop B'cause, I think now, from survey results, I'veseen people are generally working. Forty Fifty Oten people work more thanthey were before they're working like longer hours into the weekend, becauseit's there'there's not that kind of defined time where they cind of leavean office. So they they, they con mute back and some people ill find thatheard, and sometimes if the managers are still kind of driving them to do.Tiere things and they've got small children at home and it or someone h, tthey're caring for with's, really difficult and Um. No so BA. I thinkonce the kids are back in school and you can mor people remembery go t, keepworking from home m and have that kind of flexibility totally agree with youyeah. I think lotal companies are looking at cocolicies and pricessesaround Um people working from home, more we've ded, a lot of that which isthere's now. People have done it now and prove that they can work from home,so yeah we should. I think we should be seeing a not more of that, maybe evenlit part time work. I think now that'sexta wor 'cause there'sthere'sfewerparts time rolls now than I used to be and they're often kind of youknow, relegated to kind of Tembe lower paid roles as well. So if people canstart fifty percent Oyou, ninety percent on n,more senior roles or doing job shares and things just to get things done likeno, it doesn't matter who'sn the Ol face, just as you say, whats so resulte. We getting Um, hopefully be more mindedness on that yeah and do youthink Um? Do you think that sort of that shift? N,inmentality welllead ca to what Youre...

...saying that that kind of need for more?You Know Mens, take em more of the Eser at home and and sit abon. It Ho alittle bit more that people are able to take on yoknow fifty fifty at Hoansunderwork, because there's been vey're able to be more fexible with with howthey work. I mean that's. Bee Real topic isn'tItinh the last few months where you know in like jeeling com couples, nd ofall kind of varieties, but often the women are picking up the Slik with thekids and anthe men just expecting they can keep working. And now I respecteveryno family, how they want to do it, but there seems to be a pattern thereand some men are no taken opportunity to kind of get more involved with thekids bu a lot of men. Not Wanting to do that at all. Or you know I find treally stressful and no it's leading to kind of an incresisive domestic viencein some cases. So you know on its own: It's not enough O Meo, somecultures that it it's culturally, so strong that the man works and theWomans at home. With the kids that know some men just don't want to kind offeminize them, as they might see it in that way, and and some women wouldn'twan that either so I think that's crating a lot of atension, so Um YeahPC, particularly with like conclusion, work where you've got multiculturalkind of workforcees. An and people have different expectations about roles or omen of women in their teams. You know it's really interesting now to seewhat's Goingto happen and and know how it's going to pun. Her is interest. Is there anything that wecan de T HOLP people? You know hol men feel more able to take on TheironTalkarollin more the house military. Just we need a fundamental culturalshift and in how we we seit before men feel comforoted. To do that, yeah I mean I tryd to go an roll modelstet like middle manager like now how I do it with my book and everything, andI think when you start to see now we had one of our fice presidents take tecountryments of Bassca who went travelling with his daughters mhan. Hestart o see eople people at the top kind of no role, modeling thes itsalays. They can the en I can do it. Wel people kind of have like wake up,cauose, I're, talking to a colleague who's from Brazil and, like he's takinsix months, prence o leave with his kids. I haven't told his parentsbecause they'd be so ashamed of him, but yeah people are just kind of doingit anyway. Yeah an you know that that RolAddlingaghe says with them W Y know with failure with witcoetithn it's atroll modling from the top of no. If you see people aboveyou people, you respectdoing it, then then you're much more likely to pe comfortable Ding. Ityourself, I think so. 'cause I years ago there was much more stigma amountmen taking leave Lik wn when, when a man took time off, it was even calledmaternity, leavin, a kind of sarcastic way Um and you know Wyis my wife or Ho andSOTHERE's there'. Obviously this impacts women more, but you know menkind of some extent get uh. You know a hard time, because this is well if theywant to kind of know, wee involved with the family and with our kids, so yeahwe've all Gonto, we Wele to work together on this o. It O really strongly encouragedeverybody to go and reach Broyan's book honesty. wher, you briliant read, iscalld compessions of the working father and it's available on Obers, an fonlyEnoug definitey emon go to charity, H, Alall,the sales go to Winstan's wish, which is a charity for belief. Children now,which is which is a charity. That's now no really important, and these times alot of people have lost parents, and so it's is it's a situation I can relateto o Las Mo. When I was six and Soy, I really want other kids to kind of get nthe Suport O. I didn't get yeah, it's really amazing. Ye to go and buy thebook is Pretty Reed, Ondegos Toe, tin, O n Thnkyo. So much for joining S, itsbeen absoly amazing, talking CA, all really really interesting. Where caneverybody finds you if they want to you instole you on station media and engenreally hear more of your weds of with them. You can stok me on Linton Igen'rally kind, O Responde to everyone, an messages me. I speak sometimes atthe aspire conferencees. So in the aspire kind of group, there's kind ofgood chats in there. Sometimes I'm not so activon Titeyeah Porty Lington's averly the best place to get me...

...thank Ye, so much m what yryourthoughts after that that aforand, what you you can take Yo away from that?Well, my favorite e oosly is a better with Baing mechings anianre. Imaginereadings yeah, but lot yer lots of interesting topics discussd there and Ithink, we're all on this o kind of phase of saying what ports ar going tocome out of this. How is work going to be different after this time, as westart to kind of get back to a way of working, tha isn't thit all lock down,so yeah really relhe greats Charte, you always Brian Yeah, absolutely, and somepeople are saying how, when hey're going to go back to normal. As you say,it's like a new normal and a lot F. people don't want to go back to how itwas because the system wasn't working. There was o stress mental healthproblems and it wasn't working so it's a chance to cone over, nor how we dothings and mathings yeah, but exactly yeah can agree mor with very much aplace to going back to Norwall around. Here we went a whole different way ofdoing things and aact away so yea n thank Yo. So much so yes, goand byconfessions of working farther Ba Brin, Valentine and m yeah pulling on Lington floying him atthese Pi Oreas. Definitely envolved with the ESPOA conference Marand. I aegoing to be hanging out in the in the new th, the latest conference, as thatticket's just been an Ounto really encouragin. Buy's going to get boled onHexecisea SA Poridian ot being at the reimagination at workbotcast, you can check out more about us m watch this space. But U K you canpul this on all so samiliar platforms. We are at watch this spce on Ale ofyour favorite social media, parforms Thankye very much everybodyy've beenlistening tee you next time.

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