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Building Communities of Change with Areej AbuAli

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Areej AbuAli- digital marketer, founder of Women in Tech SEO, conference speaker and change maker - talks to Mo about the power of community, how to build a strong community and dealing with the pitfalls, and the importance of visibility of diverse groups for driving change within industries. The marketing world has a long way to go, but Areej is doing incredible work to help move it forward. And Allegra brings us this month's What Fresh Hell Is This? report. 

Thanks to Plus Accounting and the Business and IP Centre Brighton & Hove for sponsoring this episode. 

The toast from what this space this isthe podcast, where we ask us some questions, invite interesting guestsand ask you to change what you think about the world of work and Reimagine afuture that includes everyone. This episode is sponsored by Plus Accounting,a firm of experience, chartered accountants based in Briston hove. Theyoffer a competine range of tax and accounting services, so, whether you'rejust starting out or thinking about selling your business, they can offeryou the support and guidance that you need to keep control of your finances.What makes them stand out from the crowd? Is there you genuine interest inyou and your business? They take time to understand, what's important to youand then tailor their services to your requirements, and for this episode I am absolutelythrilled to have a wonderful guest. I have a rege AB ally from women in TechSeo, as well as many other things. I know you're a very busy person who isdoing this for this episode, so welcome yeah. I think so much it's so great tome here. Thanks for inviting me yeah, it's really great to actually meet youin person well on Zoon, but talk to you because we've exchanged lots of sort of thoughts and social media post.So it's a great to actually talk to you in persons. I think so much for joiningus and so we're going to have a good chat about you and all of the wonderfulthings that you do so it be great to start with. If you can introduceyourself and tell us a bit about you, yeah happy too, so I've a reach basedon the UK in Kent at the moment very, very close to London, and I moved tothe UK a little bit over eight years ago, I'm actually born and raised inEgypt. I've been doing digital marketing SCOL,primarily for the last seven or eight years now, and I started my own womenin Teco community a little bit over two years ago. So currently my full timejob is heading to Pesto for a Google e commerce friend and then my eveningsand weekends are spent on growing women. An take a so as much as I can, and what's your view of the world of toright now, in terms of you know, diversity and opportunities yeah, I think I mean I hope it'sgetting a little bit better. I feel like it's something that a lot morepeople are talking about. Now. I remember when I first started going toso conferences a little bit over five or six years ago. They were predominantly very white andvery male heavy, specifically in the technical sel tracks as well. It wouldbe very, very rare for me to find anyone who represents me in any way atall, and that was a little bit demotivating for sure I feel likelately. Maybe in the last two or three years a lot of people have become muchmore vocal about it and a lot of conferences and agencies and so forthhave really become more forward about makingsure that they diversify, whether it's their speaker, lineup or their teams orso forth. So I think in general, like whether it's with women, Tikis or othercommunities as well, they are coming out that are speaking God more aboutthis. It's definitely something that's being addressed and there's a littlebit more awareness, we're still nowhere near where we should be, but it'sdefinitely become better than what it was a few years ago. Yeah ill agree with you on that. Ithink things are improving, but it still so far to go on this. Therereally is yeah so and tell us about why you started women in teks little bitmore about it yeah. So we've been going on for a little bit over two years nowand see to the very very honest answer is just purely selfish.

I was starting to feel reallydemotivated and I didn't know whether I wanted to continue being an so. I wasalways like. I had a very high poster syndrome in terms of I never want to goon twitter and ask a question. Worry people would think. Oh you know howcould she be a tech who doesn't know the answer of such basic things? I wasreally struggling to find like a network or a community that felt like asafe space, where I could ask things and not I'm not shy away from that, andso I just decided to kind of well, if I'm not finding that that, maybe I needto kind of start my own community, and hopefully we can build some of thattogether, and so I just I put out to tweet- and I was like Oh we're going totake a s, your rejoice. We now have a space and it initially started off justas a facebook group and in the first few days we had a little bit over ahundred women join us, and I was like okay. I guess this is something that alot of us were looking for then and yeah. It's just been. It's been growingever since, and a little bit down the line now twoyears it's a little bitover four thousand members in total, which is crazy from all around theworld. But yeah purely selfish reasons is thereason I actually starts it wow. So it shows you the power ofsocial media actually because social rediret bad press isn't it by beingquite a negative thing, but actually this example shows how you can grow acommunity and grow connections through it yeah one hundred percent. I thinkeverything we've done in terms of like growing. It has surely been throughsocial media, so twitter has had a very very big hand and then, in the lastyear we started sharing a lot of things and like amplified a lot of our membersthrough Linton and all of our groups right now, where it's a completely freecommunity. So we use things like facebook and free on slag, and all ofthat is completely free to use and yeah. Definitely, social media has I've neverlike paid in marketing or advertising or anything along those lines, yet so purely or got to acquire social mediafor sure wow, that's amazing! So all free and you haven't spent money on it.So it's your time, essentially that's gone into building this yeah, and soyou've touched on a couple of things that you do there, but tell us a bitmore about what the community does, because I know you do a lot aboutamplifying members. Don't me yeah, so I think when we first started out, it wasjust this idea of here's a safe space where anyone can ask any question thatthey want- and I put a few rules and values from the very start to make surethat everyone is being super kind. Everyone who identifies a woman is morethan welcome. It doesn't matter if you're just heard about the word so orif you've been doing it for several years I had to start putting some rules around.There is no such thing as a stupid or a silly question, because I startednoticing people with Cavias or questions that way when they ask themand then yeah. So initially it was just purely focused on you know: here's aspace for everyone to kind of ask any questions. They want answer. anythingsothers want, and then in the first year I really focused on London events, sowe were doing London meetups. I wanted to make sure that we are getting thismuch first lime speakers as we want, because my aim was, you know this is a.This is a safe space for you to do your first talk and then you go from thereand you can kind of pitch to like of Printin so and so forth. And then, when,when look down happened, we then switched everything to be fullyvirtually so which really helped with our global audience. I'd say becauseeveryone can be a part of it now, so we started to hosting more events wherenow we have like every two weeks we hos like the bets work shops and then,after that it was then the idea of okay. Well, what other programs ininitiatives should we roll out? So we started doing mentorship program Oborthat would be focused on this idea of you know, women being both mentors andmints and supporting one another and I'd say probably the last six monthshas has really been focused on more of the concept of like how can we amplifyour members even more because it reaches a point where all thesebrilliant awesome women are doing...

...brilliant, all some stuff, but it stuckthe way in our community, and so this is where we started things like ournewsletter, our podcast so different initiatives where anyone in the worldcan basically tune in and get to know a lot of these awesome women through that it is Sertin. It sounds like a lot ofwork. All of this. Have you got people in the community involved in running itas well? Is it community ran yeah, so I kind of suck at that, and I know that Ineed to ask for more help. It's not something I've managed to do yet. WhatI have done so far, though, is I tend to partner up with people on differentprojects. So, for example, with the PODCAST I have a co host, who is hername? Is Sarah Mcdowell and she's awesome. She had her own so podcast forabout two years, which I absolutely loved, and I just gave her a call andsaid I want to do a podcast. You do a podcast like why don't we just part herup together and so for, like the mentorship cohorts, we hired theprogram trainer for that, so she kind of helped run weeklycheckens trainings things like that. Something I'm definitely keen on doingto make it scale more is the idea of having like community heroes, so I'vekind of been thinking about like how to structure that and how to place thatI'm a little bit of a control freaked would treat us, but I know that inorder for it to scale, I can't continue he being the only one who's. You knowmoderating and running things, and also I'm limited at the end of the day andthe ideas that I come up with. So the more people I work with the more ideaswe will be able to generate so definitely something for me to do overthe next few months, all right so for anyone listening who wants to getinvolved in how will share one of your contact, details or people to getinvolved. Yeah and I'd tell me it more at the mentor in Program because thatthat's obviously people volunteer their time to how does that home out and howhas it worked yeah, it's something that I wanted to do from the very start, andit took me a little bit over a year to kick off the firstcohort and I thinkwhat really inspired it is. I saw a poll was done by. I think it was Jackieshoe on on twitter and she was asking: Have you ever been mentored by? I think men or women previously and alot of people voted and said. Actually their previous mentors were men, and itgot me thinking I was like. Oh, no, you know I'm pretty sure that there are alot of brilliant women who can mentor others, and I think the funny thing iswhat ends up happening in these types of mentorship programs is that womentend to sign up as Mentes, but men tend to sign up as mentors, and so I kind ofwanted to you know challenge that a little bit so I opened the mentorshipgo. HORT is like meant to be around. I think the first one was only two months,the second one we just wrapped up with three months, and it was this idea that mentors fill and applications men,tesin applications. All then do like a one to one match making process based on. You know what things mentorswant to enter on with things mantes want to get mentored on, and the firstcohorts had two hundred matches. So there are two hundred mentors tohundred Gentes and then the second cohort that we literally just wrappedup was a little bit longer and I only had a hundred matches because I wantedit to be much more focused but yeah the I'd say. That's probablyone of the practice projects. I've done so far with win in Taco. It wasreceived so well and we had all sorts of like success stories coming out ofit. In terms of you know whether it was Mentes lise just starting out in theircareer, and they realized like what track they want to go into whether itwas Vantes who were looking for more like promotions and wanted to get somore experience to talk to them about it, but yeah absolutely love it anddefinitely something I'd be king to do wore off. But it's funny every time Iopen up that application form. I always get much more and tes signing up than Ido with mentors, and sometimes you know it requires a lot of push andencouragement. Where now you are an absolutely brilliant woman, there's somuch for you to offer. Please do sign up to be a mentor, but yeah we do. Wedo say we only require two hours...

...minimum a month, because we completelyunderstand like how much time that takes but appreciate, like all the timeand energy that both mentors and Mantes put into it, because yeah, it's pullyvoluntary, for people to be, and what we try to do from our end is number oneamplify them, but number teachers give them as much training as we can so thathopefully like this helps them as well in future. That's so interesting that less peoplesign up to be mentors. Isn't it fascinating? It really is yeah yeah.Every time I open that vacation form. I get some of the smartest most hardworking women ever message me directly and be like you know read. I reallywant to sign up to be a mentor, but I don't know if I'm put in of for I don'tknow if I have something to offer and I'm like what I sang, because you knowyou are so accomplished, you're, so smart, you have so much to offer so,but every time that happens and then they do go ahead and the sign upafterwards they're like yeah. Oh, my God, you were completely right. Likewow, you know I felt and everyone's like. Oh, that match was perfect. Itwas made, but it's like everyone has something to offer, even if you've onlybeen doing this for a year or a little bit more, like your experience, isalways going to be very different and very unique to others. So yeah yeahreally interesting and kind of what ambitions and aims do you have forwomen into future yeah. It's a tricky one that one because I feel like for me to deem woman an tector.Successful project is probably when the day comes, when we no longer need womenin tecate right, it's one of those things I and relate that a lot with aAras when, but I think until then you know it's the idea of how can we? Howcan we continue to scale and grow and something I really want to do as wellas I'm I'm conscious that a large majority of our members are purely fromlike Uk us and so on? How can we reach more of a global type of audience? Theidea of potentially having different chapters set in different countries sothat it's more like vocal based, we had some communities that got born out ofour communities, so Latin as an so is a really good example. Absolutely loveall the members from there and they only kicked off their initiative. Ithink two or three months ago, but they had very honest conversations with mewhere they said you know women in techs awesome, but it's so different fromeverything that's happening in Latin America and we need to be speaking toeach other in our language, and so I think you know in a way if it continuesto inspire, like other initiatives like that to be born more locally, wherepeople can kind of connect with each other on a level but they're not ableto on such a global community, then that's definitely went for me Yeah asinteresting, because so such a global thing, you know every country is goingto have people working on it. I guess, but but it's going to be different aswell in each region, isn't it different things going on different conversations?Yeah yeah definitely- and I think, even though in the UK like we know we'restill like so far away from where we should be, but the fact that S I canimagine it be like me being Egyptian, for example, I know for a fact how muchmore difficult it is like. I see some so agency, starting out in Egypt, whereevery single person who works on there is a guy. So you know so there'sprobably a lot more like problems when it comes to equality and so forth thatwe're we're so far away from right now. So I can completely understand you knowmembers from all around the world wanting to kind of discuss their ownissues and see how they can. You know have improvements around that yeah andhere's a question for you. So the world of Seo is obviously something you enjoybecause you're working in it and are you seeing changing, and you know whydo you think young people should consider it as a career yeah?Definitely I think that's the thing that's exciting about so and makeseveryone like feel very excited about it. It is always changing. Like the S Iwas doing a few years ago is in no shape or form S, I'm doing now andwe're always having all forms of updates coming out and changes, andit's it's one of the most. You know...

...changing things that you can possiblybe in personally, I'm someone who studiedcomputer engineering and then the a master's degree in business, and Ifound so this nice bridge between computing and business and marketing,and so I think you know a lot of young people. Would there is a lot of youknow, Diversi what you're going to end up learning, there's sense of varietyon the projects that you do something I always encourage. People who arethinking about starting out an so is to definitely start out the agency side.That's how I started my period and I think you end up learning so muchbecause you get to juggle so many things at work with so many people whenyou do that so yeah definitely one for, and I thinkalso because it has so many different tracks. So whether you want tospecialize more in the technical side or the content side or the PR type ofside, there is a lot that you can do and you don't need to define your niceright away, but you can kind of explore it more at a general angle before youdecide, you know what is it that you want to specialize in yeah? I thinkthat's the thing about it. It's got so many different aspects to working in.So I realize what we should have said right, beginning is for anyone whodoesn't know what the acronym means see search engine optimization. We shouldhave said that right in the Star Yeah, I'm okay thanks so much we're going totake a short break and occur to the. What fresh hell is this report hello and welcome to this month's? Whatfresh hell is this report this week, education, secretary, GavinWilliamson, told you word about the meeting he had with England footballstar and unofficial leader of the opposition, Marcus Rutford. Hedescribed Rushford as engaged, compassionate and charming. It thentranspired that Williamson hadn't met Rushford after all, he'd been speakingwith Inger drug measter and entirely different black man, Mara, Witton Williamson, presumably wasn't able totell the TWA men apart because the zoom screen didn't enable him to see thatthey play with completely different shapes balls. A man has been given just four years inprison for murdering a woman with the senses being so low because he claimedthat she liked rough sack, Sam pipis strangled sophimes but saidthat she likes to have pressure applied to her next during sex. And apparentlywe can't expect a thirty two year old man to know the difference betweenrough play and bed and squeezing a woman's neck so that she can't breathefor so long that she dies sophy, mosses, just thirty three andhad two young children. Our thoughts are with her family. Pretty Patel is continuing her campaignto ensure no, whether migrants have the same opportunities that her family didthis time with plans to turn small boats making the channel crossing backinto French waters. The French government have rejected the proposals,taking the view that safeguarding human lives at sea takes pre priority overconsiderations of nationality status and my gratry policy. Sadly MissMartell, whose parents left you gander in t s before diamine ravage. Thecountry disagrees the daily express carried the story ontheir front page reporting. Her pretty tale would deal effectively with Frenchfailings on migrants without a shred of irony they placed next to it a photocelebrating the success in the US Open of Emma reducin the eighteen year old.He was bought in Canada to Romanian and Chinese parents, but who is totallyBritish because she wins stuff in another display of superiorhumanness. The French government has created a special, fast trackcitizenship scheme for workers. He put themselves at risk during the pandemic.This game has seen twelve thousand workers fast tracked through the systemas Assistens Minister Milena Shepard workers responded to the court of thenation, so it is right that the nation takes a step towards them. The countrypulled through thanks to them. That's it for this month's. What freshhell is this report? Hi everybody a legree another one ofthe CO creators of watch this space. I want to tell you all about the businessan I P center, Britain and Hove. They...

...are based in the Jubilee LibrationBriton and they are transforming the way ideas grow into the successfulbusinesses. The business, an I P center Britain andHove is supporting a thriving community of entrepreneurs, inventors and smeesacross Essex. Whether you're just setting out need advice on protectingyour intellectual property or have a brilliant idea. You want to discussthey're here to guide you take off or insight and access to free databases,market research reports, an expert advice find out more at Brighton,hyphen, Hove, dot, Gov dot, UK forward, slash Bi pc back to my great thanks for that and a rege a lotmore to talk to you about. So I'm one someting I really want to discuss with.You is events and speakers, events and subjects that are discussed at eventsand what your thoughts are and how that's changing yeah. So one of the things we started,I think it was our one year anniversary. You was to be started. The speakers hubon our website and it currently features a little bit over two hundredand fifty women and the reason I started that is, I started becoming sofrustrated by how whether it's an event I'm interested in attending or whetherit's an event I'm invited to speak in it is predominantly you know. Whitemale barely has any form of diversity in it. So I think there's a lot of work to dothere in terms of it's almost like before. You know, before you startselling to kids, just kind of take take a second and think about you know howdiver Uppie is your is your speaker lineup, because that also reflects onyour audience and who ends up attending because seeing the line up like thisalways deters me and I'm sure that there's a lot of other people from fromattending. So I put the speaker up together so that organizers don't havean excuse anymore, yeah. It's like you know. If you say this is oh well, wedon't know any women, it Tak Asio, who is just like no there's two hundred andfifty of them who filled speaker cords and put them up, who are saying they'reinterested in speaking so, and I think other than that. Alsoit's. The idea of you know, there's going to be more like richerconversation, share more knowledge sharing. If you, if you bring a lot ofpeople who kind of look exactly the same, then they're going to end upsharing a lot of things that sound exactly the same. So it's a win, win win in allsituations, so I think there's a lot that can be done lately. I have seensome conferences that have had you know very, very nice splits. What sometimesit even reaches like a fifty fifty type of Split, but I'm only thinking about it from agender perspective, which is a tiny, tiny thing to think about. There is alot more that can be catered for, whether it's even early from a nextIsabelita perspective or or things along those lines. Yeah and now thereany particular events that you see that doing a good draw in this yeah, so I I think Barton so hasdefinitely like really set the standard there. I they don't ask me to do this ever, butevery time I'm about to attend one of their events. I love to go on theirspeakers page and I just love to count and see what the issue is. I so lastone D, a summer rain, yeah yeah, I loved it. I just couldn't believe itbecause I think it was the one before the last one. It was almost fifty fiftyand then the most recent one they had is the highest I've ever seen on sixtypercent women representation, and I just couldn't believe it I was likethis is crazy, but the thing with birth, in a s as well, is that they alwaysencourage and they always perotis. First Time. Speakers like I got myfirst speaking, gig Pir, Tin Esto, and I find that amazing, because they'vegot such a big stage and they've got such a big audience and the fact thatthey give these opportunities. The first time speakers and the thing isany first time speaker is going to do five or ten times what you know aseason speaker would do because for...

...them it's such a huge opportunity thatthey want to give it the role, and so you notice it because the quality ofthe talks always ends up being really good and really really strong. So yeah.Definitely you shout out to right Tennessee, O for doing that. I thinkthey've, most cone as well in the US they always insure diversifying I'vebarely ever seen less than a fifty fifty split in their speaker, lineup aswell. Yeah, that's fantastic, and those are two examples I would have picked upto that. I think they really focus on that and I think one of the things isencouraging first time, speakers, because that's the way to encouragedifferent kinds of people to try and speak at these events, and why not yeah-and you mentioned your Speaker Heart- that you have for we an intact guestyou. So if somebody wants to speak an event and they're scared and not surewhat to do. Is that something you help people with yeah, so we haven't donespecifically like speaker type of training, but one of the things we'vedone through the mentorship program is one of the tracks, as if someone isinterested T to learn more about public speaking or becoming about theirspeaker, so we always have that as an option where mentors can choose toenter on this and mines can choose to be mentored on it. But what we've alsodone is we've hosted some more trop that were on public speaking, so we'vehad Christy halls, we've had the castner go bottom, who is absolutelyawesome and she's done a lot of, like speaking type of wood camps? I alwaysrecommend shine so they're based in Canada, and they do all kinds of likegobal and virtual events. Now, and they are, you know the ultimate speaker meetcamp who they really take. You know, first time, speakers and kind of haveall of these different, like speaking mentors, and they walk them throughthis whole bootcamp, so yeah definitely tons of resources that have beenstarted and initiated by women as well, which is awesome yeah. What do you think about calling outevents? So I see people do it sometimes on twitter, I don't link ton as well.You know they see a speaker line out and say wait a minute, but it's not avery diverse line out. So what's your thoughts on that, I do it and I do itall the time, and I mean it's one of those. It's really difficult. Isn't itbecause it's not about it's, not really. This idea of you know, let's all kindof publicly shame them and so on, but but it honestly it works. One examplethat comes to mind had an awful awful awful line up the first time round andI called them out and I showed like screen shots of what their line uplooks like, and I calculated the percentage and so forth that their nextone, which they run six months later, was completely different and it had alot of first time. Speakers and I had a lot of women and I had tons ofdiversity and so for me like sure it's a little bit difficult, butyou know some some event. Organizers do take it on board and do make changesthe next time around also had something very similar happened to a conferencewhere I was invited, and I always ask when I'm first invited you know, what'sthe line up cook like l, what's the percentage split, because I don't wantto be the only woman on board or you know the only divers, woman of color orso on, and I was told Yeah you know it's an they gave me a number, I think,or something and then afterwards, when he actually, when the website went,five would speak her line up and so on. It was not at all what we had said andagain I got very disappointed. I initially like removed my speakapplication from it and then they still continued advertising it as if I was init so then I called them out publicly, and so I got a lot of apologies aboutit Talala and then the next time around again the speaker lineup was completelydifferent from the first time round. So it's not my favorite. You know thing todo, but I do think it's really really important, because I feel like I'vepersonally seen it work and I've personally seen organizers the nexttime. Ryan. You don't make sure, but...

...then it doesn't necessarily mean theseorganizers, but everyone else who's listening. I think the more we talkabout this, the more they'll be like. Oh, okay, I'm organizing my own eventsin a few months. I should probably prioritize this because I don't want tobe called out and that's fine. It works yeah and I think it sometimes how youdo those things as well like how you call people out on it. That makes adifference and then you see it sometimes in responses that people dorespond and say: Okay, you know thanks pointing that out and obviously thereare those that don't accept that and and don't like being called out, whichis kind of brings me to another question to you about social media. Sodo you? Social media can be fantastic. You know, you've grown your communitythrough it. Have you experienced negative behaviors on social media andhow do you deal with that yeah? So I think specifically even with women inTexas, so it's interesting, isn't it because so we have like a big annualconference that we host then right before lockdown. We managed to do it inLondon. So lucky it was a few weeks before looked out and it was you know it was the firstannual conference I do and and then the second time round we did it. It wasduring look down, so it was more virtual. This is our only like paidticket conference that we host and our conferences as our all our events andour community in general is open for anyone who identifies as a woman andevery time I announced that quon friend, I get a lot of dudes telling me thatwhat I'm doing is illegal and that you know the fact that I'm getting I'm it'sa paid event and they send me all types of like Gosto Uka documentation thatit's completely illegal for me to be discriminating against genders when it comes to paying for anevent or or things along those lines, and and to be very honest with you, Iinitially fruited out. I was like Oh, my is this. Is this true? Is this realand you know, and when I then spoke about it to like some lawyer, friendsof mine and so forth? I realized actually bcause when you think about itlike there are all of these, like clubs and so forth that yeah. So it's thesame idea. So of course it's not it's, probably just people being pissed thatthey can't attend an event or something like that, but so I get a lot of thatall the time. Sometimes I get like these weird anonymous type of emailsthat get sent to our main women in tecoma that are just telling us, likeeverything. We're doing is crap and things along those lines. But to behonest, like I don't I try to not let it get to me, of course, every now andthen it's a bit like it's just you know here we are we're trying to dosomething, really good and really important and really helpful for somany people, and you know why do you have to? Why do you need to come in-and you know say these things and so forth, but yeah I'd see majority likeninety, even up to ninety five percent of the time. Everything is superpositive and we do have a lot of allies who love to support us and spread thewords and even sponsor us at times. But you know every now and then you doget some of that feedback and some of these comments, and so on. I guess in away it's flattering that they want to attend your events, so you gotinteresting yeah and then I'm really interested to hear your thoughtsgenerally about the world of work. Sobie things changed a lot during thepandemic and there's been a lot of talk about going back to work and back tothe office, whereas you know for everyone's, been working through thepandemic, so interested to hear your thoughts on what you think about kindof the future of work and going back to the office. Is Your company encouragingthat, for example, yeah? So my company switch to it's like a hybrid type ofmodel right now where were required in the office twice a week and it's up tous to pick like which, two days these are, and it's it's still kind of openwhere if people still feel uncomfortable, then it's open. You know towards theend of the year or so on, and we have like flexible working arrangementswhere, if someone definitely doesn't...

...want to do the twice a week, they candiscuss, witching their contract completely to like a remote contractbut yeah I've seen so many companies kind of switch gear, and I think alsoit comes to being how competitive it's going to start the coming, because somany companies have been like okay, we're going to go completely remote.Some have said you know it's going to be fully flexible, it's up to peoplewhat they want to do and then others have kind of maintain the same. So Ithink, what's going to happen, is it's going to start becoming very, verycompetitive that if people don't have the flexibility they want, whether thatflexibility means I like coming into office, or it means I like working fromhome, or it means I like doing a bit of both. Then they're simply going to lookelsewhere, because you know there's there's tons of opportunities out there,and so many companies are taking a lot of different tracks. I do think it will get better than whatit was where it was very, very, very forced and very force means it's notinclusive in any way whatsoever. So, whether like what whether you you know,there's someone you need to take care of whether you have a disability,whether it's a lot of money, whether you're working mom or working dad orwhatever it could possibly be the fact that we always had to be in like fromnine to six what the fact that it was always sodifficult to just even take a single work from home day. I don't see thathappening down the line anymore, because you know we have proved thatthis system doesn't need to be in place for people to continue doing the workthat they need to be doing, and- and so I think you know, a lot of like teamleads and so forth has come to realize that frighty yeah it's interesting howfew they have, because I've seen a lot of people talking about insisting ontheir employees going back to the office and it's like well, if wehaven't learned anything from this whole experience, it would be such ashame to just go back to how things were, and I do do you think we'sworking remotely that there is do you think it encourages diversity, or doyou think there are some negatives to as well in terms of people missing outon the included in things yeah, I mean, I think it definitely encouragesdiversity. In terms of you know, it opens it up a lot more to people whomight in general whether it's they struggle with their commuter. They havevery different schedules, or you know they have to take care of others and soforth. So it definitely helps a lot with that. I can totally understand the idea thatyou know I've heard a lot of agency. MOSSES say that recently, which is youknow for people who have just graduated. They don't get to experience the whole concept of you know, startingin a company and team culture and working with others, and that's why Ido think you know having that flexibility in place is great, but Iget everything I want from just seeing my team like once or twice a week, andso I think you know having some of that stuff set in place and it's we had alittle bit over a year where none of us saw each other. You know, and we had alot of new people join here and there and and it worked so it's just aboutthe fact that you know how can y. We continue like fostering that cultureand I definitely sees the pros and cons in both, but you know how do weestablish like a Mi palance that that keeps everyone happy yeah? I thinkthat's A. I think it's learning from the experience we've had and creatingsomething that is inclusive, so includes different methods fordifferent people, because everyone's different, I think some people havereally missed that interaction of being in the office, whereas others have beenquite happy not to, and it's interesting, like with your community.I think there's going to be more of that. Ithink people will discover kind of other types of community that might notbe the office culture community. It might be different the more about theirinterest so that they are drawn to more people that they can network with in adifferent way. I think yeah. Definitely one hundred percent- and you know,there's a lot already- a lot of people from all around the world to kind ofwork on their own, like freelancers consultants and so on, where it isreally important for them to be able to find this form of community or network.That's outside your typical type of work place because it means you get toconnect with others and you get to...

...bring storm and you get to askquestions and, and all of that stuff is so important and doesn't necessarilyneed to only be restricted. You know with people you work with yeah, exactlyyeah, and so what advice do you have for anyone who's considering a careerin so like? How should they get into it? What kind of training do you think theyshould do yeah? I can't think of a single so whostarted out, and you know unreceived training prior, it's I feel like withso you just have to be naturally curious and and willing to learn andbecome part of something that is constantly changing. I've learned everything I need to learnon the job, but in the first you know a few months to one to two years isusually when you cram as much information as you possibly can, andthen you start deciding okay. What do you want to to Mechai e in and what doyou want to focus in more and what you want to learn? More about there are somany amazing resources out there now alive. The solace has her brilliant,like learning Gassiot io, which literally is a full road map. It takesyou all the way from the beginning to the end, and then it takes you likedown different tracks and all the resources who's collated and includedin that are completely free, which is crazy, but I love her for that. She alwaysdoes tons of stuff like that and other than that's like there's lots of eventsand things to get started. My advice is always for people to go agency signed,as I mentioned, because I think agencies are always welcoming peoplewho are whether they're fresh gratuits from school or UNI or whatever it mightbe, and you get so much training when you joinan agency and you get to you know, learn from so many people and work witha lot of people and test your ideas and a lot of different sites and so forth.So that's definitely my recommendation for someone WHO's. You know whostarting out and and just be naturally curious and don't get overwhelmed bythe amount of you know, information out there take it a little bit at a time,and you know find people that you can look up to and that you respect and askthem as many questions as you possibly can yeah great and it always strikes withone of those careers that if you learn it and become skills in it, thenthere's so many opportunities to progression. Caracter, there's so manykinds of companies you could work for as well as agency sign. It just seemssuch a broad tract, ICES yeah for sure yeah. Definitely I mean five yearsafter doing agency side. For me, like a D in a house and initially I wasworking for like an aggregator type of company and then recently I moved hecommerce so until now, like I'm still learning so much, even though I've beendoing this for bit over seven or eight years now- and that's you know, that'sthe cool thing, because you don't want to be working at something where youfeel like. I know everything that needs to be done. You know I can do my jobwith my eyes closed you, you want to continue working in something where youalways feel challenged, and you always feel like you're learning, new thingsyeah for sure yeah sounds really interesting. Are Thank you. So much nowtell us where people can find you and where they can find women and Take Co.What are all the links yeah, so women, an take. A com you'll find everythingyou need. There you'll find how you can access our facebook group or Slatcommunity you'll, find interviews that we publish on a weekly basis withbrilliant women. You'll find our podcast you'll, find everything youneed there and then on putter. We are at Tso women. You can also find us ifyou look us up on instagram and on Linkedin and then for me, I'm on a rig,a Valio and I'm also on twitter at are under score about great. Thank you so much so everyonecan look you up and connect with you for sure great. Thank you. so much beena fantastic and interesting guest and really interesting subjects to talkabout. So this has been the reimagining at work podcast from watch this space.We Are Watch this space to K and on social media where, as what this spe-and we were speaking a time,...

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